What about the engine?
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What about the engine?
Its a few reasons why a car company does what you are saying. Lets take a look at Lexus firstly.
I think the biggest reason is money and its divided into two different view points:
1) Cost cutting. By taking away features from the previous generation (last years) and not giving it to the new generation (early years), they are able to keep the new generations starting price lower. This is why the Lexus ES starting price is relatively almost the same. I haven't looked into it yet but I think they might have cut some features from the previous generation ES that came as standard.
2) Drawing hype for later year models to get more money. This is what they did for almost the whole life cycle of the 3G IS. The 3G IS F-Sport didn't come with much in the early years of the vehicle. However - over time - they trickle down some of the features from the "luxury" or "Non-F-Sport" model to the F-Sport model. This gave people incentives to buy the new F-Sport models.
Its definitely shady Toyota does this but its business at the end of the day.
Other companies that are guilty of this is Acura. They can't get the A-Spec Package and the Advance package together. I'm sure later in the years, more Advance Pack stuff will trickle down into the A-Spec models.
It sucks companies do this because the "Sport package" models do look much better.
Engine is trickley. My friend and I did gossip about engine changes in the 4G IS.
There are two boats in this debate. People that think it'll stay the same. And people think they'll overhaul everything.
My friend and I think its gonna stay the same because Toyota has been known to slow and conservative with engine changes. What I think will happen is they'll keep the Turbo 4, the V6 and then add a IS-F or maybe a IS400 with the TTV6. My money will be on the IS-F getting the TTV6 before they develop a IS400.
Toyota seems to be slow with trickling down stuff. The TTV6 is one of the biggest highlights to the LS. I think it'll be fast of a trickle down to drop the TTV6 straight into a standard IS so fast.
I think they'll drop it into a IS-F because it'll be priced higher and it can draw hype for the "return" of the IS-F. IE: "IS-F returns with TTV6 from LS to fight M3." Makes for a good headline and hype.
I'm just assuming this from a marketing stand-point. But - no one really knows what will happen. But I would put my money on the early years of the 4G IS to have no engine change.
to artificially limit the price....
mikeavelli
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My frustration as well. F-sport and luxury should not be mutually exclusive..... I just don't even understand how in a 100k car like a LS, I cannot get rear TV's etc in the F-Sport. My kid loves them in the LX. I would love it in the LS. I would be stuck to a non F-Sport...
Just let people pick the luxury pack with F-sport.....
In Canada the GS F has it, the car is completely loaded. Incredible.
Good addition with the Lexus LS.
Toyota does this with the Lexus LS as well. The Luxury LS and F-Sport LS both have different things. I would love to have the "Luxury" features in the LS in the F-Sport. But they refuse to mix them together...
Ian Schmidt
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Some enterprising aftermarket company could probably do good business selling equivalents to the F-Sport parts to attach to the normal trim level LS and ES. You wouldn't get everything in the F-Sport (the trick dash, most notably), but at least you'd have something of a choice.
mikeavelli
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I've actually looked into swapping bumpers. But you also miss the Sport plus and suspension and brakes, rear steer option etc....
Yeah. There's so much else you miss out on besides bumpers. I really find it annoying that Lexus splits the two apart. In my opinion, the F-Sport just looks so much better majority of time.
Side note: I just realized you are Mike F from Vossen. Holy crap. Lol. Huge fan of the Wheels and saw you in some Vossen videos before.
mikeavelli
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Thanks Sakura, I appreciate that.
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No way Lexus is keeping the current 8AR-FTS and current V6 for the 4IS. These engines are extremely underwhelming even as of 2016. The 4IS would fall flat on its face at launch.
My take is Lexus will launch with a new redesigned turbo 4 (or at least HIGHLY revised--there's some strong deliberate de-tuning in the current one) and a scaled down/detuned TT V6 (probably through software) from the LS to push out around 330 hp.
The 4IS will have to lose at least 150-200 lbs to be successful.
My take is Lexus will launch with a new redesigned turbo 4 (or at least HIGHLY revised--there's some strong deliberate de-tuning in the current one) and a scaled down/detuned TT V6 (probably through software) from the LS to push out around 330 hp.
The 4IS will have to lose at least 150-200 lbs to be successful.
Almost everyone else has a turbo 6 cylinder powerplant...hell, even Kia has one. I'll admit to test driving one of those (GT2 AWD, aka 'Limited' in Canada) and after I extricated myself from the soft nappa leather seats, I could not believe that I had just finished test driving a Kia with a sudden urge to buy one right there and then. The 3.3L TTV6 puts out a lot of power, combine it with the HTRAC system (basically BMW xDrive) and you're in a Kia that can outgun or match any Lexus vehicle in acceleration and speed...save for the LFA, of course.
I'm still holding out for the 4th gen IS anyway because I know that Toyota/Lexus makes a superior product, but if Lexus drops the ball and recycles the NA V6, I'll be looking away from the IS line.
It'll be interesting to see what Lexus does, since the C43 is getting 385hp and the Q50 RS is already pushing 400hp. Just price it in line with the 340i / S4 / C43 ($56k - $58k CAD) and I'll be happy.
As a side note... I think @Carmaker1 was supposed to have commented on this thread with more info on the 4IS, but it looks like he was taken away by the Lexus police.
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Yes - in terms for car enthusiasts - it will fall flat on its face. But in terms of the "bean-counters" and Toyota corporate - it'll make 100% sense to recycle the engine. And 100% I hope they don't either but the business-perspective side of me know they will.
Why do I think they will recycle the engine?
1) Firstly - Toyota is slow as hell in terms of changing things up. Evidence of this is the IS250/IS350 engine from the 2G IS made it into the 3G IS. That shows Toyota has no problem with recycling engines.
2) The 8AR was first introduced in 2015 and the 2GR-FKS was also introduced in 2015. That's still "fairly" new. Toyota will want to max the use of these engines before changing them.
3) Price - probably. A TTV6 Lexus IS350 might increase the cost of the vehicle too much for what it is. I think they'll run the TTV6 in the IS-F before the regular IS gets it.
The Lexus IS will be successful regardless. The 2014 Lexus IS sold the same nearly the same amount of cars as the 2006 Lexus IS - and Lexus recycled the engines for the 2014 model year. In perspective - the engines were about 8 years old and still sold. This is why I think Toyota might just project a "IDC attitude" and just recycle it.
The issue here is - they have to detune the engine. If they keep the same engine specs from the LS, it'll be a 400+HP IS. That might push the starting price of a 400HP IS to over 50K - with options that would probably hit 60K. That makes the car 4K or less away from the start price of a RC-F and they still need to leave room for a IS-F slot. This is why I think the IS-F might return in the 4G with the TTV6.
8AR-FTS with new transmission and revisions might fit GA well... i dont think it or GR are going anywhere as base engines.
As to the weight, who knows... i doubt it will be significant loss if any.
4k lbs is too heavy to compete in this segment. The new 330i weights just below 3600 lbs.
A smaller platform derived from GA-L is needed.
What about GA-N?
Gecko
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If I recall correctly, LC wheelbase is almost identical to the current IS. The V8 would be theoretically heavier than an I4 or V6, but with all of the focus on rigidity and safety, it may be true that GA-L is just a fairly heavy platform... at least in the versions we've seen so far.
LC is generally around 4,300lbs I think? IS would be 2 more doors, probably less sound deadening, less premium materials, no V8. It won't surprise me to see the IS around 3,900-4k lbs.
LC is generally around 4,300lbs I think? IS would be 2 more doors, probably less sound deadening, less premium materials, no V8. It won't surprise me to see the IS around 3,900-4k lbs.
I agree with this. Revisions might happen but overall - the 8AR and 2GR are going to stay.
I think people complaining (especially the people at ClubLexus) about the power within the 8AR Lexus IS300 don't really understand the point of the Lexus IS300.
The Lexus IS300 has always been a competitor to the Infiniti Q50 2.0T, BMW 320i, and the Audi A4 FWD Ultra. Its pretty much the "cheaper" entry-level model to their RWD luxury sedan. The Lexus IS300, within that competition, is the better car out of all of them. It doesn't need a power upgrade nor much. It just need to relatively stay in cheaper end in terms of price.
If Toyota up the power of the Lexus IS300 too much, it'll push the vehicle into 330i/Audi A4 Quattro competition, which is where the Lexus IS350 competes.
Toyota needs to keep the Lexus IS300 low on power to stay the entry-level model - especially since - within the Lexus IS line - the Lexus IS300 is their money maker for the car.
Secondly - the Lexus IS350 - competes with the 330i, Audi A4 Quattro, Infiniti Q50 Silver Sport and the C300. I do find it odd people keep comparing the Lexus IS350 to cars like the S4, 340i, Q50 Red Sport and C43 AMG. The Lexus IS350 doesn't compete there. Within the competition the Lexus IS350 competes in currently, its the second fastest car. Its still relatively a competitive engine.
This is why I think - the TTV6 will either come to the Lexus IS in two ways. Either a new Lexus "IS400" or the return of the "IS-F". Giving the fact that Toyota is a bunch of bean-counters, they'll probably produce a Lexus IS-F before a Lexus IS400. I think this because people who buy a Lexus IS tends to buy the Lexus IS300 anyways. The Lexus IS400, much like the M340i, are a niche sale. They'll probably pull more IS-F sales than IS400 sales.
Just because the 330i weighs below 3.6 pounds doesn't mean the Lexus IS will. Didn't Lexus spokesperson say somewhere before they are planning to stop following the Germans and doing their own thing?
4K pounds is not too heavy to compete in the segment. The Infiniti Q50 is almost 4K pounds.
The IS, even sharing LC's length and wheelbase, will be considerably lighter because a) it's narrower b) it's going to use much lighter powertrain c) there won't be as much structural strengthening in the chassis d) there won't be as much sound insulation. It doesn't make sense to use a luxury GT's weight to estimate the weight of a considerably cheaper car.
We can instead use the Crown as a reference to estimate the weight of the 4IS. The 2.0T RWD weighs around 1,700kg (3,750lbs), or 100kg heavier than the previous generation (previous gen is smaller, and doesn't have TSS). The 2.5 hybrid RWD weighs around 1,750kg (3,850lbs), and the heaviest 3.5 multistage weighs 1,870kg (4,100lbs). I expect the 4IS, if the size is similar to the Mark X, to be roughly 50kg lighter than the Crown using the same powertrian. So the IS300 RWD will be around 1,650kg which is slightly heavier than the current generation. The multistage will be the only RWD model approaching 4,000lbs. Only AWD or PHV variants will surpass 4,000.
To lose 100kg the 4IS will have to use all-aluminum construction, which is obviously something Lexus will avoid. I think 1,650kg is about the optimum weight for a mid-size sedan with a good balance of ride quality and agility.
Also, a 2.0T, whether a Dynamic Force motor or the old 8AR, is definitely here to stay. The output will very likely stay the same at 180kW/245hp, while improvements will mostly be in efficiency, NVH, and responsiveness. The IS300 as is has a lot of low hanging fruits, as the 8AR/8AT combo is not optimally tuned for performance. I'm not surprised they could get at least 0.5s 0-100 while maintaining the output; their competitors are about that much faster with similar power-to-weight ratio.
We can instead use the Crown as a reference to estimate the weight of the 4IS. The 2.0T RWD weighs around 1,700kg (3,750lbs), or 100kg heavier than the previous generation (previous gen is smaller, and doesn't have TSS). The 2.5 hybrid RWD weighs around 1,750kg (3,850lbs), and the heaviest 3.5 multistage weighs 1,870kg (4,100lbs). I expect the 4IS, if the size is similar to the Mark X, to be roughly 50kg lighter than the Crown using the same powertrian. So the IS300 RWD will be around 1,650kg which is slightly heavier than the current generation. The multistage will be the only RWD model approaching 4,000lbs. Only AWD or PHV variants will surpass 4,000.
To lose 100kg the 4IS will have to use all-aluminum construction, which is obviously something Lexus will avoid. I think 1,650kg is about the optimum weight for a mid-size sedan with a good balance of ride quality and agility.
Also, a 2.0T, whether a Dynamic Force motor or the old 8AR, is definitely here to stay. The output will very likely stay the same at 180kW/245hp, while improvements will mostly be in efficiency, NVH, and responsiveness. The IS300 as is has a lot of low hanging fruits, as the 8AR/8AT combo is not optimally tuned for performance. I'm not surprised they could get at least 0.5s 0-100 while maintaining the output; their competitors are about that much faster with similar power-to-weight ratio.
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