Tesla has "redesigned" the Model S and Model X

Levi

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While the taycan is the right car for the porsche market, i do wonder if porsche is prepping their own version of a plaid competitor. Them folks have a huge ego that will not take being last for anything.
Remember GT-R vs 911 Turbo, they came with 911 Turbo S. We could see a Taycan Turbo GT or whatever name they come up with.
 

LateToLexus

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Toyota cares more about quality, reliability, and dependability. Tesla cares more about hype and wow factor.

Maybe. But as Toyota/Lexus move more of their manufacturing to the US, I'd be shocked if their overall reliability doesn't trend closer to the mean/median.

As an American myself. Zero chance. Zero chance. You can talk American automotive manufacturer laborers into caring as much about the QDR and about the importance of their jobs and their place within the company as you can in Japan. Completely different work cultures. Everyone keeps having "Kaizen" moments......Not the same.
 

LateToLexus

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Aa lot of blind hate directed at the Model S plaid. That car is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad man.

Hypercar acceleration for like $150k? Who the hell is mad about that? That is essentially the cost of a loaded F150 raptor or tremor nowadays? These from the blue oval which isn't exactly free of quality/reliability concerns, many more serious than uneven panel gaps.

Seriously, it is maybe, what, one of the 3-5 fastest cars you can buy and at a fraction of the competition of the others yet people wanna flog it because of Elon or T fan boys? Can hate on Elon for his methods and fanboys for being fanboys (ahem, a couple/few on this thread), but the Model S Plaid is pretty damn good vehicle for what it is....A million miles better than the largest automotive behemoth in the world, Toyota, has for an electric vehicle despite all their alleged engineering ingenuity.

Just saying.
 

LS500-18

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I bought the top spec Model S in 2018, it was the P100D with Ludicrous mode. Nearly the Plaid. The car was an absolute hoot to drive, the acceleration was gut wrenching and it was soooo much fun. But alas things just kept breaking. Terrible quality for the money. I had it for 2.5 years and just hated dealing with the F'ing company with the repairs. Literally within a month or two after having it fixed something else would break. And I had things they refused to fix that they acknowledged. The car is a hoot but if you need service, the ownership falls apart. Even you can't deny that.

Tesla keeps "redesigning" the identical car for 11+ years now. I can't believe they consider it a "refresh" LOL average person on the street couldn't tell a 2012 or 2023 apart if they were parked beside each other. Tesla's entire lineup is not fresh like a Kia EV6, Ioniq 5, GV60, etc. I do think the Model S looks good, but hey I owned two of them. The Y is hideous.

You are probably right, quality will decrease as Toyota builds more cars in the US.
 
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spwolf

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I bought the top spec Model S in 2018, it was the P100D with Ludicrous mode. Nearly the Plaid. The car was an absolute hoot to drive, the acceleration was gut wrenching and it was soooo much fun. But alas things just kept breaking. Terrible quality for the money. I had it for 2.5 years and just hated dealing with the F'ing company with the repairs. Literally within a month or two after having it fixed something else would break. And I had things they refused to fix that they acknowledged. The car is a hoot but if you need service, the ownership falls apart. Even you can't deny that.

Tesla keeps "redesigning" the identical car for 11+ years now. I can't believe they consider it a "refresh" LOL average person on the street couldn't tell a 2012 or 2023 apart if they were parked beside each other. Tesla's entire lineup is not fresh like a Kia EV6, Ioniq 5, GV60, etc. I do think the Model S looks good, but hey I owned two of them. The Y is hideous.

You are probably right, quality will decrease as Toyota builds more cars in the US.

i have pretty good experience with my 2022 M3. It is not as good as my Lexus's, but not terrible. I found their warranty in my part of Europe to be superb, more so than my local Toyota/Lexus. I had steering wheel, brakes and rear lamp replaced with no questions, and some without me asking - i came in for a service checkup and they told me they will warranty the breaks i shot dead during winter drive.

Still the favorite car i have ever owned.

But going back to my original reply, Tesla does improve and simplify all the time. All the time.
I think you would be surprised with 2023 Model S interior quality. It is fine. I drove one for few hours, it is so much better than before.

It is just not flashy, just like Lexus is not flashy. Again, very much like TMC.
 

ssun30

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The other legacy manufacturer to adopt the constant Kaizen philosophy with BEVs is Ford. I consider the Mustang Mach E to be a very poor attempt at its launch. But recently I've sampled three trims (including the GT) and now I consider it to be the strongest Model Y competitor from a legacy manufacturer by far. And Ford has been incrementally improving the Mach E and constantly benchmarking the latest model year of TMY to keep up. This is in stark contrast to Toyota today who engineer their products based on competitor designs from 5 years ago so they are consistently one generation behind.
 

Levi

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This is in stark contrast to Toyota today who engineer their products based on competitor designs from 5 years ago so they are consistently one generation behind.
That us Toyota’s way of doing. The GS F benchmarked the M5 E39, two generations behind.
 

Ian Schmidt

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Maybe. But as Toyota/Lexus move more of their manufacturing to the US, I'd be shocked if their overall reliability doesn't trend closer to the mean/median.
I like to mock Detroit (and Fremont) quality too, but the US-built ES had the same defect rate as the JDM version. I remember a lot of press about how TMC trained the Kentucky plant workers for years (who were already making Camrys and Avalons with excellent quality) and didn't start production until they could consistently make a Lexus-quality car. Honda's also had good results with US production.
 

Sulu

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I like to mock Detroit (and Fremont) quality too, but the US-built ES had the same defect rate as the JDM version. I remember a lot of press about how TMC trained the Kentucky plant workers for years (who were already making Camrys and Avalons with excellent quality) and didn't start production until they could consistently make a Lexus-quality car. Honda's also had good results with US production.
What is considered a defect? Are misalignments of such items as panels and doors, that are more visual but do not otherwise cause more serious problems such as water leaks, considered to be defects?

My 2022 Camry has a passenger-side front door that very obviously does not line up with the rear door (it bothers me every time I see it but thankfully there is no water leak) and a badly-finished rear lower bumper cover (where different-coloured plastics meet).