REVEALED! 8th Generation Lexus ES Megathread (ES 350h, ES 350e, ES 500e)

bogglo

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The interior was the nail in the coffin. The fact that we did not hear or see anything about this until reveal is telling.

I actually hope the bz7 is the one that makes it globally.

I never believed an ES will replace LS.
With this new ES I'm scared of what to expect from future Lexus. Crazy how it's 2025 and the only car I still want from lexus is the GSF.
 
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Why couldn’t they have emulated Volvo instead of Tesla for the interior 😫?!? The ES90’s interior is minimal, but still gorgeous, plush, warm, and inviting.

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ssun30

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I don't have much engineering background, but is there a reason why they lengthened the overhang for this new generation? I thought previously overhangs were mostly due to ICE powertrain components needing space but with the transition to HEV/BEVs I didn't think long overhangs would be necessary? Are crash standards just that hard to meet without these longer overhangs?
This is why:

GA-K has very weak crash structures to reduce cost. These crash tests simulate real world scenarios and we see multiple red flags: broken front crash beam, broken A pillar weld points, direct contact between dummy's head and semi-truck crash beam (guaranteed death), ruptured fuel tank(!), and completely collapsed rear crash structure. Therefore, the only way for them to comply with safety regulations is increasing the length of the crash boxes. Buy a $50k car based on a $30k car, expect $30k car safety.

This is what a properly engineered transverse platform looks like:

And the S60 has normal looking proportions:
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Compared to the over meter long overhang of the ES:
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mediumhot

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Toyota completely forgot what made Lexus special.
Fixed for you.

Don't mind me for quoting you to start the rant :) What has made Lexus special was what American customers have thought made the luxury vehicle brand special. 40 years later it's now up to Chinese customers to give their say what makes a luxury vehicle special. There's been a global shift in car industry in regards who is in a position to make demands and pay for it.

I don't mind the car actually, Chinese market is the largest sedan market in the world. It's the place where sedans are still sold in big numbers. If you don't like CUV invasion you can partially thank Lexus for that and their RX which set the course for the future of good ol US car market. After all what did you expect when they announced Lexus will go BEV all the way? Be reasonable, there was no way Toyota could have pulled out some surprising BEV architecture and powertrain out of their arse by being late to the BEV game. Toyota being late too BEV is whole another topic that's been discussed to death before, electrification leader falling behind and handing out the cake to someone else; Tesla.

US market is very .. don't have an exact word for it but it's very one dimensional. When Prius was a thing it was identified as the whole Hybrid market. You wanted a hybrid you get a Prius, period. You don't get a Ford, Honda, GM, not even a Lexus hybrid, no, you buy yourself a Prius. US identified hybrid as Prius much like how it now identifies EV with Tesla. You want an EV, great buy a Tesla. No matter if other have a better product (Lyriq) it doesn't matter Tesla is the EV and others are not. Tesla made us accept that EV car is all about autopilot, range and performance and not about interior experience, quality control, road noise and all other basic car stuff. I mean we have accepted to swipe our fingers on a touchscreen to switch gears and that's beyond idiotic. We are at the point where US market has already been allocated and it's in crawl mode when it comes to change. Tons of examples of a market not being ready to change and adopt like self-parking feature from 20 years ago to headlight regulations not being up to par with the rest of the first world. That's why single models like Prius or Tesla have become synonyms for pioneer change that rarely has been accepted across the board, heck even RX has been a synonym for the only premium CUV for a very long time. Chinese market is still a up for grabs because domestics manufacturers are fighting to survive and they are going head-to-head with foreign brands like never before (besides going head to head too),

It was inevitable Toyota would rely on their Chinese partnership as some stop gap solution before their bespoke BEV comes along. Not to spoil the party but I seriously doubt they will ever bring out anything significant of their own as long as they can rely on Chinese tech and logistics. My gripe with that strategy is of course total lack of focus on interior and exterior design but more importantly lack of application of the latest technology. If you are partnered up why not bring the big guns then? Chinese EV tech is far ahead, and you would think adopting the cutting edge stuff is a no brainer? Well I guess it's a brainer for them for some reason. What ES500e offers here is nothing spectacular in regard to what premium brands offer in China. Actually it's very mediocre. But if the price is right it might be a great way to punch in the BEV card in western markets. If loaded ES500e costs less or equal to RZ500e Luxury I would be pleasantly surprised.
 

mikeavelli

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Half of me also thinks since most everyone doesn’t like it online it will sell like crazy lol. It sounds like this was an effort aimed first for the Chinese market. Wild how in 35 years things have changed. So like I said earlier many of us are not the target here. The volume in china overwhelms the USA, similar to how the USA overwhelmed other countries and dictated product in the past.

I think if this was badged HS in America there would be less anger and confusion here. But calling it an ES means Americans expect ES sensibilities.

We had a good run America…..
 

ssun30

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The thing is, as a China-centric product it doesn't even appeal to the Chinese market well. It doesn't have L2 autonomous driving (which is basically a must-have on any car above ¥200k). It doesn't have zero gravity seats. It doesn't have a VIP option (4 seater with full center console). It doesn't have the power or range or range extender. How much do they expect to sell this for? The current ES is already discounted to the moon to maintain the sales target. The OTD price for a base ES200 is ¥210k (less than US$30k) and the top trim 300h can sell for ¥300k. 7 years ago I bought my base 300h for ¥380k. They cannot afford to keep selling 100k cars a year for zero or negative profit.

Here's what they need to fend off challenge from local brands: no less than 700km CLTC range, no less than 500hp, no more than 20 min 80% charge time, L2 autonomous driving standard, zero gravity seats, electric doors, fully active suspension. Then they can talk about returning to the ¥300-500k market. Otherwise, all it can offer now will be available on the much, much cheaper BZ7.

For many years Lexus pretended they exist in a vacuum and believed their customers will buy whatever uncompetitive garbage they make. The truth is their sales growth came from products that have no direct competition. But the moment they face real competition their sales instantly flop. Sure they can claim every year is their best year, until it isn't. The Germans have completely driven them out of the high value market, and now the Chinese are coming for their value conscious market.

I hate the Nokia analogy because cars are durable goods and shouldn't be treated as phones. But we really are looking at a company that doesn't realize the trouble they are in and still believes everything is fine.
 
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CRSKTN

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This is literally Toyota throwing in with China and signaling their view that a United States-centric global economy is no longer the long-term trend. At some point Toyota will do the same to China and shift to India, etc. Wherever the most $, least demanding, least sophisticated buyers are is where the next focus is. It's the most efficient part of the curve to live in.

It's almost like when you let morons clog up society, companies can just end up catering to them and it's way easier because they're morons. "Stupid people ruin everything" is the truest statement I have ever come across. Those same morons are the source of every fascist uprising, populist movement, etc.

I imagine you're going to see more market-specific makes & models too, especially as regulations diverge.

Europe is going to be an interesting market. They're going to have to open up a bit to enable their automakers to do enough business in-continent to survive (which is feasible). Efficiencies and local scale take time, but it's worth it, and would go towards re-industrializing the population there.
 

spwolf

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So it is designed by JDM, increasingly for Chinese market, based on new GA-K with Toyota engines.

What seems to be the problem?

It looks way nicer than old ES, and yes, like nicer Toyota, just as always.
 

mikeavelli

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This is literally Toyota throwing in with China and signaling their view that a United States-centric global economy is no longer the long-term trend. At some point Toyota will do the same to China and shift to India, etc. Wherever the most $, least demanding, least sophisticated buyers are is where the next focus is. It's the most efficient part of the curve to live in.

It's almost like when you let morons clog up society, companies can just end up catering to them and it's way easier because they're morons. "Stupid people ruin everything" is the truest statement I have ever come across. Those same morons are the source of every fascist uprising, populist movement, etc.

I imagine you're going to see more market-specific makes & models too, especially as regulations diverge.

Europe is going to be an interesting market. They're going to have to open up a bit to enable their automakers to do enough business in-continent to survive (which is feasible). Efficiencies and local scale take time, but it's worth it, and would go towards re-industrializing the population there.

When this was posted it gained no traction. But is scared me. Because if PORSCHE is down big in China, does anyone stand a chance?

To your point we must welcome our new overlords lol. This is it. Volume dictates things. China has the volume. China was smart enough to plan an attack of leaning from the imports then demanding cooperation and building better vehicles. Again if Porsche isn’t safe that is ALARMING.

To your point of idiots over the next week we will get low art form videos and jokes of the ES being a Camry when it’s not. No one is really going to deep dive into this car.
 

Sulu

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I don't have much engineering background, but is there a reason why they lengthened the overhang for this new generation? I thought previously overhangs were mostly due to ICE powertrain components needing space but with the transition to HEV/BEVs I didn't think long overhangs would be necessary? Are crash standards just that hard to meet without these longer overhangs?
This model comes as an EV and a HEV so, yes an ICE will be available in some models.
 

Ian Schmidt

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The worst thing about this announcement was the mention of the upcoming "comprehensive re-imagining of the Lexus brand". If this is the first step of that, the RX is gonna be so bad it might bring Acura back from the dead.
 

ssun30

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So it is designed by JDM, increasingly for Chinese market, based on new GA-K with Toyota engines.

What seems to be the problem?

It looks way nicer than old ES, and yes, like nicer Toyota, just as always.
I think it's because they market it as a "flagship" while not putting in flagship effort.

It's too big to be sold in EU/JP. US no longer likes big sedans. So that leaves China but it's simply not competitive enough for China. How could it possibly survive against the SU7?

I don't think its sales will flop at all because the already trash tier current gen ES still sells well. Any product can sell well if the company is willing to subsidize the price war.
 

internalaudit

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I like the the interior and exterior design, don't really care about the overhang, as I don't pay attention to that.

Anyway, it's always good to be brand agnostic these days but I think with BEVs in Canada, I'd stick with Honda or Toyota. BMW may be good but the Neue Klasse design isn't growing on me lol.
 

internalaudit

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The worst thing about this announcement was the mention of the upcoming "comprehensive re-imagining of the Lexus brand". If this is the first step of that, the RX is gonna be so bad it might bring Acura back from the dead.
Acura is probably going to be back and do well in the EV market. I'm pretty sure mid-level BEVs will come with torque vectoring diffs or e-diffs. That's really the selling point of many Acura vehicles anyway over their Honda counterparts.
 

spwolf

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I think it's because they market it as a "flagship" while not putting in flagship effort.

It's too big to be sold in EU/JP. US no longer likes big sedans. So that leaves China but it's simply not competitive enough for China. How could it possibly survive against the SU7?

I don't think its sales will flop at all because the already trash tier current gen ES still sells well. Any product can sell well if the company is willing to subsidize the price war.

No matter how small it is, it is not going to sell in EU or JP, Toyota already discontinued Camry. That ship has sailed.

I don't believe it is too big for USA and definitely not too big for China.

If anything, US customers will like larger size at similar price.

Interior looks better to me than old Toyota copy, but thats maybe only me and me being used to Tesla. As long as materials are fine, it will be feeling luxurious inside. Also look at their combo graphics, so obviously Lexus.
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