Official Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain/Product Discussion

carguy420

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And the L15B1 is only a good engine on paper. It's about 5hp down on the R18 so it's fast. But the carbon build-up is very bad even by DI standards. Servicing that engine is a nightmare. At least in China it's the first PR disaster that caused Honda sales to plunge, though quickly became overshadowed by the oil dilution issue on the L15B7. The R18 despite being an outdated engine from mid 2000s, is very reliable and cheap to maintain.

Seriously, any DI engine without complementing port injection should be a big red flag. Toyota did their experiment in the late 90s (3S-FSE/1JZ-FSE with 1st gen D-4) and it was a limited-scale disaster. 3S-FSE is very rare in the used market because they have mostly disintegrated. So they got the homework done and introduced self-cleaning D-4S. Mazda and VW also got it right.

The whole L15B series (NA and Turbocharged) is becoming a failed 'Earth Dream'. It only ruined their reputation in China for the time being, but it's a huge ticking time bomb that will detonate sooner if american auto press could stop, forgive my foul language, licking Honda's butt.
I have one phrase for the Honda fanboys, that is "keep on dreaming".
 

carguy420

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Years ago, when Honda first debuted the Earth Dreams branding, I had casually made a joke to some friends about that. Now it's scary to think that the joke I made is almost becoming reality. The joke I made years ago at the time was that Honda should rename the Earth Dreams branding to 'Hopes and Dreams'. Sadly that almost seems to be what a lot of modern Honda engineering is based on, hopes and dreams.

Every single Earth Dreams engine with Honda's standard DI system is a ticking time bomb.
Don't forget Earth Dreams was introduced on one of the worst F1 cars ever.
 
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And the L15B1 is only a good engine on paper. It's about 5hp down on the R18 so it's fast. But the carbon build-up is very bad even by DI standards. Servicing that engine is a nightmare. At least in China it's the first PR disaster that caused Honda sales to plunge, though quickly became overshadowed by the oil dilution issue on the L15B7. The R18 despite being an outdated engine from mid 2000s, is very reliable and cheap to maintain.

Seriously, any DI engine without complementing port injection should be a big red flag. Toyota did their experiment in the late 90s (3S-FSE/1JZ-FSE with 1st gen D-4) and it was a limited-scale disaster. 3S-FSE is very rare in the used market because they have mostly disintegrated. So they got the homework done and introduced self-cleaning D-4S. Mazda and VW also got it right.

The whole L15B series (NA and Turbocharged) is becoming a failed 'Earth Dream'. It only ruined their reputation in China for the time being, but it's a huge ticking time bomb that will detonate sooner if american auto press could stop, forgive my foul language, licking Honda's butt.
I actually own a Toyota Crown with a 2JZ-FSE and I was wondering what kind of longevity I can expect from it.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I actually own a Toyota Crown with a 2JZ-FSE and I was wondering what kind of longevity I can expect from it.
The 2JZ-GTE is of course famously reliable; I'm not sure if that applies to the -FSE or not though.
 

carguy420

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@ssun30 the Malaysian auto journalism is full of Honda butt lickers and a lot of consumers are also Honda butt lickers and there are very ignorant.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Sounds promising. So...I'm guessing for Asia and Europe only.
Not necessarily. GR and, I believe, GR Sport trademarks have been filed in the United States, so it's possible we'll see something along those lines.
 

spwolf

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Not necessarily. GR and, I believe, GR Sport trademarks have been filed in the United States, so it's possible we'll see something along those lines.
it will likely be TRD for USA... but sure, due to low volume in the US, they might not have these special editions... just like Yaris GR and Yaris GR Sport will never come to the USA.
 

ssun30

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Actually after digging through some papers published by Toyota before, I have compiled the peak brake thermal efficiencies (BTE) for their current engines, not including the already well-known DF series:
'Small' I3/I4 Class
KR/NR-series Pre-ESTEC, NA, PFI: ~37%
KR/NR-series ESTEC, NA, PFI: ~38.5%
8NR-FTS, Turbocharged, D-4T: ~36% (same as Honda L15B7)
'Medium' I4 Class
ZR-series, NA, PFI: ~35%
ZR-series, NA, Valvematic, PFI: ~36%
2ZR-FXE Pre-ESTEC, NA, PFI: ~38%
2ZR-FXE ESTEC, NA, PFI: ~40%
'Large' I4 Class
AR-series, NA, PFI: ~35%
2AR-FSE, NA, D-4S: ~38.5% (note despite the name 2AR-F'S'E, it actually uses Atkinson Cycle)
6AR-FSE, NA, D-4S: ~36.5%
8AR-FTS, Turbocharged, D-4ST: ~36.5% (tied with VW EA211 Evo, only bested by Nissan KR20DDET)
6-cylinder Class
2GR-FE, NA, PFI: ~35%
2GR-FSE, NA, D-4S: ~35%
2GR-FXE/FKS/FXS, NA, D-4S: ~36% (note despite the name 2GR-FX'E', the early hybrid motor actually uses D-4S).
Diesel
1GD-FTV ESTEC, Turbodiesel, D-4D: ~44% (their most efficient ICE)

That's all I can get for their current offerings. For reference later VVT-i 'Z'-generation (MZ, ZZ, NZ) engines have around 34% peak BTE. Baseline was 25% achieved in early 90s with 4-valve DOHC and EFI, so I would assume the old non-VVT S, A, JZ, UZ motors fall in this range.
 
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carguy420

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The DF engines no longer use ACIS, is it because the benefits don't justify the extra cost?
 

carguy420

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The new Camry just debuted in my country and of course as always we got the short end of the stick, the 2.5L variant is still using the 2AR-FE with a 6 speed automatic transmission.

UMW Toyota is the worst.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I didn't know there was a fuel cell Lexus far enough along to really be cancelled, but go on :)
 

ssun30

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Never thought they would seriously proceed with the FCV to begin with. Their FC program could be rescoped away from passenger vehicles to commercial vehicles as that's where FCs make sense.
 

Will1991

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And I'm sure as heck shocked, no one has commented on the recent cancellation of the Fuel Cell Lexus.
That’s quite a surprise for me I must be honest.
Just a couple of months ago they made some arguments in favor of FCV, it's a big change on Lexus future powertrains.
Are they going to BEV’s? As far as I’m aware there is only one SUV coming, maybe UX-e? There has been some rumors regarding a second gen CT, but only comes from some rumors throw Lexus Europe.


Never thought they would seriously proceed with the FCV to begin with. Their FC program could be rescoped away from passenger vehicles to commercial vehicles as that's where FCs make sense.
I doo agree with you, FCV’s makes some much more sense on HGV’s...
 

spwolf

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That’s quite a surprise for me I must be honest.
Just a couple of months ago they made some arguments in favor of FCV, it's a big change on Lexus future powertrains.
Are they going to BEV’s? As far as I’m aware there is only one SUV coming, maybe UX-e? There has been some rumors regarding a second gen CT, but only comes from some rumors throw Lexus Europe.




I doo agree with you, FCV’s makes some much more sense on HGV’s...
gotta go when market goes... plus TMC has been making large investments into battery R&D and production for past 10 years.

As to the EVs, they said 10 EVs by early 2020's (2022?) worldwide, but it will depend on the market.

Also they recently said that all TNGA vehicles are engineered to easily adapt EV.
 

Carmaker1

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Yes per Mag-X it is cancelled. In reality, it seems that USA and other regional Lexus divisions, are not up to speed as some sources at HQ in Japan leaking info to Japanese media.

In response to a recent reply, any talk about a fuel cell Lexus may not have any bearing. Unless it came directly from Japan recently, then likely it's from a regional division that's uninformed.

This tells me more than likely, the few people I heard give assurance of no GS cancellation were also likely wrong and just not yet informed back in spring 2017.

Mag X got the jump on them, which I happened to catch 2 years ago. I only relented from that GS rumour upon looking at, what was probably outdated industry databases, who probably do better with knowing about US/CAN-assembled Lexus against those made in JP. Plus uninformed UK and USA personnel giving me assurances.

I am now over the belief that the GS-F and GS 300B programme was ever resurrected and it has always been cancelled since the fall of 2016, right before Mag X reported it in December 2016.

The language being used in this December 2018 issue ( released 2018/10/26 ) regarding the LS-FC cancellation echoes that of the GS announcement in late December 2016 for MAG-X's February 2017 issue.

The April 2019 300B production date was the target in the end (pushed from late 2018), so I can imagine 30 months prior to that would've been design freeze circa October 2016 and management vetoed it at that very moment.

Committing to such a crucial stage, would mean spending money to finish developing it into a production model and creating production tooling. Thus, no more GS, but no announcements yet about its demise.

At that point, the 240/241B programme ES was already frozen months earlier and probably couldn't really be reworked anymore as a GS replacement.

AWD is likely a late ES addition intended to be offered as soon as the GS ends production around March.

I can't speak for the Fuel Cell LS, as I haven't had much interest in it as a petrol head nor familiar with the needed lead times for such a vehicle.

But I strongly believe it is cancelled and trust Mag-X on this.

My problem with this is that I'm tired of Toyota canceling models halfway through developing them and probably wasting resources that could have been better utilized elsewhere.:mad:

They need to be more on the ball with product planning, as seen with excellent TNGA-C and TNGA-K products, but slow to arrive GA-F and GA-L. To think what could've gone towards a plug-in, TNGA-F, nd another Dynamic Force engine between the 2.5 I4 and V35A-FTS turbo 6, if this cancellation is true.

I cannot imagine how much was expended on this, to be discarded.
 
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F1 Silver Arrows

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Yes per Mag-X it is cancelled. In reality, it seems that USA and other regional Lexus divisions, are not up to speed as some sources at HQ in Japan leaking info to Japanese media.

In response to a recent reply, any talk about a fuel cell Lexus may not have any bearing. Unless it came directly from Japan recently, then likely it's from a regional division that's uninformed.

This tells me more than likely, the few people I heard give assurance of no GS cancellation were also likely wrong and just not yet informed back in spring 2017.

Mag X got the jump on them, which I happened to catch 2 years ago. I only relented from that GS rumour upon looking at, what was probably outdated industry databases, who probably do better with knowing about US/CAN-assembled Lexus against those made in JP. Plus uninformed UK and USA personnel giving me assurances.

I am now over the belief that the GS-F and GS 300B programme was ever resurrected and it has always been cancelled since the fall of 2016, right before Mag X reported it in December 2016.

The language being used in this December 2018 issue ( released 2018/10/26 ) regarding the LS-FC cancellation echoes that of the GS announcement in late December 2016 for MAG-X's February 2017 issue.

The April 2019 300B production date was the target in the end (pushed from late 2018), so I can imagine 30 months prior to that would've been design freeze circa October 2016 and management vetoed it at that very moment.

Committing to such a crucial stage, would mean spending money to finish developing it into a production model and creating production tooling. Thus, no more GS, but no announcements yet about its demise.

At that point, the 240/241B programme ES was already frozen months earlier and probably couldn't really be reworked anymore as a GS replacement.

AWD is likely a late ES addition intended to be offered as soon as the GS ends production around March.

I can't speak for the Fuel Cell LS, as I haven't had much interest in it as a petrol head nor familiar with the needed lead times for such a vehicle.

But I strongly believe it is cancelled and trust Mag-X on this.

My problem with this is that I'm tired of Toyota canceling models halfway through developing them and probably wasting resources that could have been better utilized elsewhere.:mad:

They need to be more on the ball with product planning, as seen with excellent TNGA-C and TNGA-K products, but slow to arrive GA-F and GA-L. To think what could've gone towards a plug-in, TNGA-F, nd another Dynamic Force engine between the 2.5 I4 and V35A-FTS turbo 6, if this cancellation is true.

I cannot imagine how much was expended on this, to be discarded.
I'm about to go insane. Is there ANY REASON why any of us should still be loyal to Lexus (or Toyota ffs) anymore? Why can't I have a new GS? I seriously hope to god that some exec sees this.

FIRE AND THROW OUT YOUR FINANCIAL ADVISERS.

CLEARLY they don't have a clue when to release a damn car. And whenever they do, its during a recession and they blame the market. DO NOT lie and blame others for not wanting a new GS. LOOKIE HERE. I AM ONE. And so many others as well. -______-
 

sl0519

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I'm about to go insane. Is there ANY REASON why any of us should still be loyal to Lexus (or Toyota ffs) anymore? Why can't I have a new GS? I seriously hope to god that some exec sees this.

FIRE AND THROW OUT YOUR FINANCIAL ADVISERS.

CLEARLY they don't have a clue when to release a damn car. And whenever they do, its during a recession and they blame the market. DO NOT lie and blame others for not wanting a new GS. LOOKIE HERE. I AM ONE. And so many others as well. -______-
Same. I can only hope the GS will be resurrected some time in the future as a four dour coupe.
Sadly it seems like the managements in TMC does not seem to care internet voice.
 
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