Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[Ian Schmidt]

At the same time, let's not assume a group of like-minded people generating noise on an Internet forum means anything in terms of the mass market. I work in video games. Most modern games silently "phone home" and send anonymous usage data so we know what features and game modes people actually play. Almost universally that data doesn't match what people are bitching the loudest about online.

 

[ssun30]

I doubt the research spent on the LS-FC is wasted though. After all integrating an electric powertrain is easier than a conventional powertrain involving ICEs, as long as your base platform is designed to accomodate eletrification (which is true for TNGA). So I don't think the actual engineering effort involved in this program is even comparable to, say, the hypothetical LS-F.

Now I actually feel much better that they are cancelling White Elephant projects like the LS-FC. There is just no demand for such a vehicle, and what 'halo effect' can it achieve anyway? The money is much better spent on actual fuel cell/battery/autonomous driving development.

We know TMC will not back out of their FCV effort especially considering they got China on their boat. Li's visit to Toyota's Mirai factory resulted in a significant rethinking of China's EV policy and Abe's subsequent visit materialized into an agreement to align their future EV policies.

It's not about the accountants. Politics are just as important for EVs as the engineering aspect, if not more.

But anyway we know that the focus has now shifted to commercial vehicles, which should be the direction they should have went in the first place.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

Still no official word on the 6 blank engines in the original post? They did say over the course of 3 years early this year, and the 2019 models are out. I guess they'll start hyping something early next year for the 2020 models.

 

[ssun30]

Still no official word on the 6 blank engines in the original post? They did say over the course of 3 years early this year, and the 2019 models are out. I guess they'll start hyping something early next year for the 2020 models.

Highlander next year will debut at least two powertrains including the bigger hybrid and the bigger turbo 4. Plus a 1.5L base engine has more or less been confirmed for next year on an unknown vehicle with a probable codename of 710B.

 

[carguy420]

Highlander next year will debut at least two powertrains including the bigger hybrid and the bigger turbo 4. Plus a 1.5L base engine has more or less been confirmed for next year on an unknown vehicle with a probable codename of 710B.

A hybrid bigger than the current 2.5L?

The 1.5L is probably for the next generation Yaris/Vios.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1120195_toyota-to-keen-to-add-trd-treatment-awd-across-lineup

AWD all things? I wouldn't complain. Do that, and give some engine options. The article above mentions the possibility of a Corolla TRD that would act as a Civic SI fighter, but I honestly think that is optimistic. Toyota may build a chassis that's on-par, but the powertrain won't have the same oomph.

In other news, I read that the 2020 Corolla sedan in the US will still have the 1.8l 2ZR as the base engine while the SE/XSE trims will get the 2.0l M20A upgrade. MT versions will have active rev matching. There's a 1.8l hybrid version, too, with a quoted 50MPG.

 

[spwolf]

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1120195_toyota-to-keen-to-add-trd-treatment-awd-across-lineup

AWD all things? I wouldn't complain. Do that, and give some engine options. The article above mentions the possibility of a Corolla TRD that would act as a Civic SI fighter, but I honestly think that is optimistic. Toyota may build a chassis that's on-par, but the powertrain won't have the same oomph.

In other news, I read that the 2020 Corolla sedan in the US will still have the 1.8l 2ZR as the base engine while the SE/XSE trims will get the 2.0l M20A upgrade. MT versions will have active rev matching. There's a 1.8l hybrid version, too, with a quoted 50MPG.

we have been talking about this for 6 months now... Camry, Avalon and ES getting AWD soon, 6 months? Corolla and CHR will get GRMN treatment, with 1.6l 3cl turbo and 240-260hp. Rumors but slowly getting credible.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

Rumors but slowly getting credible.

Exactly my thoughts and why I posted that article.

 

[spwolf]

Exactly my thoughts and why I posted that article.

i think only question is if they will arrive in the USA... and it seems they actually might.

 

[ssun30]

I'm increasingly doubtful about the '1.6 turbo 3 for Corolla GR' rumor. First, we know one of the rumored '1.6L TNGA engine' does not exist (it's a refreshed 1ZR-FAE). Second, we know the naturally-aspirated engine below the M20A is definitely a 1.5L. So by logic any turbo I3 should also have a 1.5L displacement. That brings to my final point: Toyota seems to be aiming at 90% of the average specific output and BMEP of turbo engines in the industry, 90kW/L and 22.5bar respectively, to maintain the reliability record of their turbo engines. The only exception would be the LC-F's 600hp+ V8. A 1.5T inline-3 would make 180hp/270Nm in this case. 250hp is very overstressed for a 1.5 which is definitely something Toyota will try to avoid: nobody even builds a 1.5T I3 that powerful! In fact this engine will be more stressed than the V8TT and the latter has much better inherent balance plus all the strengthening a supercar engine receives.
The Corolla GR will either receive a 8AR, or a turbo M20A if it wants 250+hp. I will be really surprised if Toyota does build a 1.6T I3 that powerful.

 

[spwolf]

I'm increasingly doubtful about the '1.6 turbo 3 for Corolla GR' rumor. First, we know one of the rumored '1.6L TNGA engine' does not exist (it's a refreshed 1ZR-FAE). Second, we know the naturally-aspirated engine below the M20A is definitely a 1.5L. So by logic any turbo I3 should also have a 1.5L displacement. That brings to my final point: Toyota seems to be aiming at 90% of the average specific output and BMEP of turbo engines in the industry, 90kW/L and 22.5bar respectively, to maintain the reliability record of their turbo engines. The only exception would be the LC-F's 600hp+ V8. A 1.5T inline-3 would make 180hp/270Nm in this case. 250hp is very overstressed for a 1.5 which is definitely something Toyota will try to avoid: nobody even builds a 1.5T I3 that powerful! In fact this engine will be more stressed than the V8TT and the latter has much better inherent balance plus all the strengthening a supercar engine receives.
The Corolla GR will either receive a 8AR, or a turbo M20A if it wants 250+hp. I will be really surprised if Toyota does build a 1.6T I3 that powerful.

yeah... still a lot of engines are missing, that ZR wont be included.

I dont mind ZR engine, new 1.5 NR ESTEC is Yaris is great, all my Toyota buddies are proud of it. I wish they add 1.6l ZR to the Corolla Hatch as well.

 

[ssun30]

^^I wouldn't mind the 1ZR and 2ZR either. The ones that I drove before are adequate for their size. Valvematic really comes alive past 4000 rpm using manual mode (auto mode on the CVT sucks though). I would only worry about owning a 3ZR because you know, 2007 materials technology plus a very long stroke.

 

[spwolf]

^^I wouldn't mind the 1ZR and 2ZR either. The ones that I drove before are adequate for their size. Valvematic really comes alive past 4000 rpm using manual mode (auto mode on the CVT sucks though). I would only worry about owning a 3ZR because you know, 2007 materials technology plus a very long stroke.

as long as they can significantly lower consumption compared to last Auris 1.6l I had from 2009, it would be great as base.
I know their prices for UK are $1500-$2000 more than before.

 

[Will1991]

Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...

 

[Ian Schmidt]

In their defense, it's not clear FCEVs are the solution for consumer transportation, sticking with NiMH until solid-state batteries come out is an excellent way to avoid the sort of bad publicity Teslas get on a fairly regular basis for trying to barbecue their drivers, and outside of Norway and China nobody's buying any EVs that aren't Teslas yet.

 

[spwolf]

Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...

death of Toyota.


p.s. they are moving to lions for cheaper hybrids now due to lower price, keeping nimh for more expensive hybrids. And they will sell 2m hybrids next year, more than everyone else combined and multiplied by some large number

 

[DFGeneer]

Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...

You should google for "Innovations in Solid State Battery 2018".
The result will surprise you.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

death of Toyota.


p.s. they are moving to lions for cheaper hybrids now due to lower price, keeping nimh for more expensive hybrids. And they will sell 2m hybrids next year, more than everyone else combined and multiplied by some large number

Camry Hybrid base model is now on li-ion because of less weight, possibly lower cost. The higher trims are heavier to begin with so the weight penalty is less pronounced.

 

[spwolf]

Camry Hybrid base model is now on li-ion because of less weight, possibly lower cost. The higher trims are heavier to begin with so the weight penalty is less pronounced.

it is lower cost... they are starting to put lions into cheaper vehicles, and keeping nimh to more expensive ones due to the cost reasons. With Prius, it would be now on pretty massive scale as it sells 350k units per year.

 

[ssun30]

Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...

All EV sites are inherently anti-Toyota because it doesn't make a BEV. These sites denounce Toyota at every opportunity possible even though it is the world's biggest maker of electrified cars, period. Plus they will downplay whatever problems Tesla and Co. have in their current BEVs.

As for FCVs, it's good to see them NOT trying to build a fuel cell passenger vehicle as they should have started with commercial vehicles in the first place.

I used to be a harsh critic of Toyota's strategy of using Li-ion only on a limited range of vehicles. Now I appreciate the decision somewhat more since they more or less waited and see if their Li-ion packs can catch fire. And just one battery on fire is the worst PR nightmare for any car maker. Now three years later no Li-ion equipped Prius, Prius Prime, or Camry Hybrid LE has been reported to spontaneously catch fire due to battery problems (while Tesla has a track record of at least two battery fires a year). I think that's what really gave TMC the confidence to give the green light on Li-ions in the future.

What really bugs me is their decision to build NiMH packs for hybrids in China. There is no logical reason to build the more expensive NiMH when China has the lowest materials cost for Li-ion. If there is any market where they could completely switch to Li-ion it should be China just for cost savings alone.