Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[suxeL]

When we bought my mother 2015 Limited 4Runner, we took to a split Toyota/Lexus dealer and told her to test drove the $49K 4Runner and then the GX with the V8 for $65K...she chose the Toyota. This was after coming out of a V8 4Runner. I guess we could have bought her a Tundra limited for $50K or a Sequoia for $75K at the time. They all cross price points somehow and at some point . Just sharing my personal ownership experiences within my family.

Thats interesting. What was the reason for the V6 4R over the V8 GX?

 

[LexsCTJill]

Thats interesting. What was the reason for the V6 4R over the V8 GX?

Overall experience I guess. My mother really does not like the idea of a luxury nameplate, she had a Cadillac in the past, then she went to the Toyota brand with her first Toyota being a V8 4Runner, while my dad had a Lexus. She never cared for the Lexus he had. So the GX while having a V8 was great, she really didn’t care for the design inside. The one dealbreaker, was that it must have full-time four-wheel-drive, the limited 4Runner does and so did the GX. The other dealbreaker was that the GX had the barn door and a third row standard which the 3rd row was something she did not want. There was also some sentimental value as well, as she did not sell her previous V8 4Runner, she sold it to me, and then got the same color blue, so we both now have one of the same color but from different generations.

Another example for you is my father got rid of his Lexus ES, he traded it in for the new Toyota Avalon. Same dealer a split Lexus Toyota dealer. Same guy sold him a car. These are experiences that Soyfan just can’t touch on as he just looks at his data, but has no real world life experiences buying these types of cars. My dad spend $8K more on the Avalon than he did on the ES, but Soyfan would never know this is his bash on Lexus sales.

^^^ above examples are to show how money can just move from either the Toyota brand or the Lexus brand and back and forth, this is a situation that Mercedes Benz or BMW do not have. I’m assuming General Motors does have the situation as well as Ford and Lincoln with their top and pricing.....

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Is RR leasing the real benchmark though? Yes they have been able to push leases but what happens in the secondary market when you have those returns? Are they able to recover any value or is it a breakeven where the new lease offsets the loss on the return?

This doesnt count out other marques which have used leasing quite effectively to gather marketshare though like BMW, MB, Audi, Volvo, Infinti to name a few

Unfortunately, I don't know the back end of JLR stuff. Its well known that RRs depreciate massively in comparison to the Lexus SUVs, but their buyers are not like Lexus buyers. They want the latest tech and what not, and will pay the asking price. It probably matters little to the RR buyer about the long term because after 3-4 years, they just buy another one.

From a dealer standpoint, these vehicles make more money, and IMO, this is the segment that Lexus isn't succeeding in. RX and ES sales bring in less per vehicle.

JAGUAR LAND ROVER SETS NEW US FULL YEAR SALES RECORD WITH 125,787 SALES IN 2019, A THREE PERCENT INCREASE FROM 2018 RECORD HIGH | JLR Media Newsroom

Jaguar Land Rover today reported December 2019 U.S. sales

media.jaguarlandrover.com

 

[suxeL]

Overall experience I guess. My mother really does not like the idea of a luxury nameplate, she had a Cadillac in the past, then she went to the Toyota brand with her first Toyota being a V8 4Runner, while my dad had a Lexus. She never cared for the Lexus he had. So the GX while having a V8 was great, she really didn’t care for the design inside. The one dealbreaker, was that it must have full-time four-wheel-drive, the limited 4Runner does and so did the GX. The other dealbreaker was that the GX had the barn door and a third row standard which the 3rd row was something she did not want. There was also some sentimental value as well, as she did not sell her previous V8 4Runner, she sold it to me, and then got the same color blue, so we both now have one of the same color but from different generations.

Another example for you is my father got rid of his Lexus ES, he traded it in for the new Toyota Avalon. Same dealer a split Lexus Toyota dealer. Same guy sold him a car. These are experiences that Soyfan just can’t touch on as he just looks at his data, but has no real world life experiences buying these types of cars. My dad spend $8K more on the Avalon than he did on the ES, but Soyfan would never know this is his bash on Lexus sales.

^^^ above examples are to show how money can just move from either the Toyota brand or the Lexus brand and back and forth, this is a situation that Mercedes Benz or BMW do not have. I’m assuming General Motors does have the situation as well as Ford and Lincoln with their top and pricing.....

Appreciate the insights that truly cannot be addressed by Redlines Author. However but in fairness we must address that this may not be the majority of cases that are coming through showrooms. For instance would a Lexus GX buyer be willing to move down into a utilitarian 4R without the V8 (maybe gain the normal normal hatch over the barn door)?

Unfortunately, I don't know the back end of JLR stuff. Its well known that RRs depreciate massively in comparison to the Lexus SUVs, but their buyers are not like Lexus buyers. They want the latest tech and what not, and will pay the asking price. It probably matters little to the RR buyer about the long term because after 3-4 years, they just buy another one.

From a dealer standpoint, these vehicles make more money, and IMO, this is the segment that Lexus isn't succeeding in. RX and ES sales bring in less per vehicle.

JAGUAR LAND ROVER SETS NEW US FULL YEAR SALES RECORD WITH 125,787 SALES IN 2019, A THREE PERCENT INCREASE FROM 2018 RECORD HIGH | JLR Media Newsroom

Jaguar Land Rover today reported December 2019 U.S. sales

media.jaguarlandrover.com

Same here dont know the backends but good food for thought if anyone does. Is it true that the Es And Rx sales dont bring in as much? I though this was the essentials for Lexus as the sheer volume is insane.

 

[LexsCTJill]

Appreciate the insights that truly cannot be addressed by Redlines Author. However but in fairness we must address that this may not be the majority of cases that are coming through showrooms. For instance would a Lexus GX buyer be willing to move down into a utilitarian 4R without the V8 (maybe gain the normal normal hatch over the barn door)?

I definitely would not call the limited 4Runner utilitarian. heated and cooled seats were the same materials as the ES mid level package. Optitron gauges. Little touches as puddle lamps, floor ambient lighting, roof illuminated spot light shines on the Center console at night. Full time 4WD. A hydraulic suspension that eliminates roll of the body. 20” rims i would call the 4Runner limited a premium model 100%. Very different than the domestic built Toyota 4wds. Most head room I have seen in the front. And 88 cubic feet of cargo is why the 4Runner is so desirable.

 

[suxeL]

I definitely would not call the limited 4Runner utilitarian. heated and cooled seats were the same materials as the ES mid level package. Optitron gauges. Little touches as puddle lamps, floor ambient lighting, roof illuminated spot light shines on the Center console at night. Full time 4WD. A hydraulic suspension that eliminates roll of the body. 20” rims i would call the 4Runner limited a premium model 100%. Very different than the domestic built Toyota 4wds. Most head room I have seen in the front. And 88 cubic feet of cargo is why the 4Runner is so desirable.

The Lexus GX is built in Tahara Japan just like the 4R and platform mate Land Cruiser Prado...not much of an domestic built toyota awd.
As it shares a platform alot of those requirements are already met (full time 4wd ATRAC, KDSS, AVS, puddle lighting).

The difference here is refinement, Throaty V8, towing capabilities, and of course the service experience tailored to Lexus, things the majority of shoppers in the Luxury segment wont find with a 4R

 

[LexsCTJill]

The Lexus GX is built in Tahara Japan just like the 4R and platform mate Land Cruiser Prado...not much of an domestic built toyota awd.
As it shares a platform alot of those requirements are already met (full time 4wd ATRAC, KDSS, AVS, puddle lighting).

The difference here is refinement, Throaty V8, towing capabilities, and of course the service experience tailored to Lexus, things the majority of shoppers in the Luxury segment wont find with a 4R

I don’t disagree With you.

 

[Gecko]

Let's make sure we are staying on topic here 😊

 

[suxeL]

Let's make sure we are staying on topic here 😊

Sorry for the tangential thoughts there. I think the point I was driving towards/question was "has the old school tech charm that is found in abundance in the majority of Lexus Vehicles finally reached its expiration date in the North American market that requires bleeding edge design and engineering on display in every single product"


I think so far by the journalists it has...
By the number of units sold it has...
By the Lexus and Toyota fans (like myself) its a mixed bag.

While we all want the passion that was found in the 90s-00s Lexus, currently has very little to none of that today, and I have to sadly to agree with the reviewer that lack of passion is contributing to its "fall" and leaving more hungry newcomers like the Genesis with an opening to overtake.

 

[ssun30]

I think since you don't see what other car makers are doing, you don't see that Lexus could have done better. Range Rover is able to sell their expensive vehicles at the 90-100K pricepoint, with crappier reliability, but it doesn't matter to their buyers, because they still come back to lease them in 3 years.

JLR is probably the worst example you can use. JLR's main market used to be China, and here their sales nearly halved in just one year and they were sitting on quarters worth of unsold inventory in early 2019 until they slashed prices by 30%-50% on every product they sell. At the worst time the Range Rover is so worthless it sells for less than the Land Cruiser Prado. They only recently returned to making profit but that's just from closing factories and laying off workers. I wouldn't call that a success story.

I don't know how they are successful in USA but their brand strength is nowhere as strong as BMW and Mercedes Benz so they can't just throw away reputation. They were heavily punished for poor quality control and reliability globally, and it will just be a matter of time that happens in USA as well. Luxury brands have most of their added-value in trust, and once trust is gone the added value goes to zero. If quality and reliability is trash, people don't lease again, they lease another brand.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

JLR is probably the worst example you can use. JLR's main market used to be China, and here their sales nearly halved in just one year and they were sitting on quarters worth of unsold inventory in early 2019 until they slashed prices by 30%-50% on every product they sell. At the worst time the Range Rover is so worthless it sells for less than the Land Cruiser Prado. They only recently returned to making profit but that's just from closing factories and laying off workers. I wouldn't call that a success story.

I don't know how they are successful in USA but their brand strength is nowhere as strong as BMW and Mercedes Benz so they can't just throw away reputation. They were heavily punished for poor quality control and reliability globally, and it will just be a matter of time that happens in USA as well. Luxury brands have most of their added-value in trust, and once trust is gone the added value goes to zero. If quality and reliability is trash, people don't lease again, they lease another brand.

Well, here the image is quite different than China. Range Rover can sell vehicles with a poor reliability record because American buyers don't care about it and will pay quite a lot for them.

I can't say how great they are during a lease period, but the marketing works for them here to American customers. IMO the heritage of the vehicles is adored more in the western world than the far east it seems. While Americans do tend to keep their vehicles for awhile, that is not the case for most affluent buyers. But yeah, if a Chinese customer buys his RR and keeps it long enough, he's going to deal with the issues that the American buyer avoided by leasing theirs. Personally, I think leasing is still a foreign concept to most Chinese buyers; even then, most will pay in cash because they don't want to pay financing charges.

From a RR owner:

Here’s Why Land Rover Doesn’t Care About JD Power Ratings

Another day, another Land Rover victory in a JD Power survey. Assuming that you turn the chart upside down.

dougdemuro.kinja.com

If Range Rovers Are So Unreliable, Why Do People Still Buy Them?

Good news, everyone! Today is Friday, and that means it’s time for Letters to Doug, your favorite weekly Jalopnik column wherein you ask me a question and I tell you the answer in a highly questionable way.

jalopnik.com

 

[CRSKTN]

Well, here the image is quite different than China. Range Rover can sell vehicles with a poor reliability record because American buyers don't care about it and will pay quite a lot for them.

I can't say how great they are during a lease period, but the marketing works for them here to American customers. IMO the heritage of the vehicles is adored more in the western world than the far east it seems. While Americans do tend to keep their vehicles for awhile, that is not the case for most affluent buyers. But yeah, if a Chinese customer buys his RR and keeps it long enough, he's going to deal with the issues that the American buyer avoided by leasing theirs. Personally, I think leasing is still a foreign concept to most Chinese buyers; even then, most will pay in cash because they don't want to pay financing charges.

From a RR owner:

Here’s Why Land Rover Doesn’t Care About JD Power Ratings

Another day, another Land Rover victory in a JD Power survey. Assuming that you turn the chart upside down.

dougdemuro.kinja.com

If Range Rovers Are So Unreliable, Why Do People Still Buy Them?

Good news, everyone! Today is Friday, and that means it’s time for Letters to Doug, your favorite weekly Jalopnik column wherein you ask me a question and I tell you the answer in a highly questionable way.

jalopnik.com

Just popping in here to say, wow, Doug DeMuro is a terrible writer/reviewer. Is this the sort of thing that has gotten him his following?

And yeah, RR are lease vehicles here for people who care more about image than making a rational decision. I don't know a single person who has a RR who wants another one.

 

[James]

Just popping in here to say, wow, Doug DeMuro is a terrible writer/reviewer. Is this the sort of thing that has gotten him his following?

And yeah, RR are lease vehicles here for people who care more about image than making a rational decision. I don't know a single person who has a RR who wants another one.

Interesting to hear about RR. I have always loved the exterior of them but never was the biggest fan of their interiors for some reason. What is their primary reason for not wanting another one from the people you know? Is it the unreliability or something else?

 

[internalaudit]

Any chance Lexus will be focusing more on BEVs and FCEVs this decade, which nicely explains the disinterest to refresh and come up with all new models? I think Porsche is too, except for the 911. I believe Volvo has a similar intention or at least will be offering a BEV for each model eventually.

Porsche Macan EV Production to Start in 2022, Electric Boxster, Cayman Could Follow

The Porsche electric SUV will be built on Porsche and Audi's PPE platform, and the electric Boxster and Cayman will use their own platform.

www.caranddriver.com

Maybe it will focus on its E-TNGA (or Lexus equivalent) for new and exciting BEVs?

Toyota introduces their e-TNGA platform - electrive.com

www.electrive.com

I wonder how many enthusiasts Lexus will lose if its entire line up will be 100% electric by 2030.

 

[CRSKTN]

Interesting to hear about RR. I have always loved the exterior of them but never was the biggest fan of their interiors for some reason. What is their primary reason for not wanting another one from the people you know? Is it the unreliability or something else?

Unreliability and service issues. That and basically trying to sell it second hand is a nightmare, and apparently dealers will take you to town on lease returns if they think you wont roll into a new one.

Actively tried to get anyone who would listen to take it off of them. Car spent more time at the dealer being serviced than he drove it in the few years he had it.

The interiors arent as nice as they're made out to be. The styling is great, for sure, but aside from largely irrelevant offroad claims, I just dont see what the appeal is.

 

[internalaudit]

Unreliability and service issues. That and basically trying to sell it second hand is a nightmare, and apparently dealers will take you to town on lease returns if they think you wont roll into a new one.

Actively tried to get anyone who would listen to take it off of them. Car spent more time at the dealer being serviced than he drove it in the few years he had it.

The interiors arent as nice as they're made out to be. The styling is great, for sure, but aside from largely irrelevant offroad claims, I just dont see what the appeal is.

All I recall from my brother is they had case study on RR in business school. This was in the 90's. RR fixes every complaint so that customers provide a positive feedback and don't make a fuss about reliability issues.

Maybe consumers have smartened up. Or RR customer service and/or reliability has tanked even further?

Update: Oops, I was talking about Rolls Royce not Range Rover lol.

 

[suxeL]

JLR is probably the worst example you can use. JLR's main market used to be China, and here their sales nearly halved in just one year and they were sitting on quarters worth of unsold inventory in early 2019 until they slashed prices by 30%-50% on every product they sell. At the worst time the Range Rover is so worthless it sells for less than the Land Cruiser Prado. They only recently returned to making profit but that's just from closing factories and laying off workers. I wouldn't call that a success story.

I don't know how they are successful in USA but their brand strength is nowhere as strong as BMW and Mercedes Benz so they can't just throw away reputation. They were heavily punished for poor quality control and reliability globally, and it will just be a matter of time that happens in USA as well. Luxury brands have most of their added-value in trust, and once trust is gone the added value goes to zero. If quality and reliability is trash, people don't lease again, they lease another brand.

Western worlds, the RR moniker has established itself as a brand thats associated with the concept of being prestigous or doing well finacially (at least before anyone realizes its probably a lease and requires severe maintenance).

That marketing concept has done well for them, so much so I have known some folks personally who were able to resell their new body style Range Rovers 6 months after purchase for close to sticker (nowdays thats absolutely impossible as their are enough units to crash the depreciation curve).



EDIT: In relation to the topic at hand, Lexus is about being low-key luxury and long term reliability...two things which honestly can also be found in newer Toyotas...so consumers may find themselves asking why the extra premium for Lexus?

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Just popping in here to say, wow, Doug DeMuro is a terrible writer/reviewer. Is this the sort of thing that has gotten him his following?

With YTers, you love them or hate them. Yes, he admits to being awkward and quirky, which is probably why he attracts a following among enthusiasts. For me, I do like watching some of the videos in which the cars interest me. But what he said about RR is true, as he owns two, one being the infamous RR bought from Carmax with a warranty that paid for itself for all the repairs needed.

FYI, I did spot him driving passed me one time in San Diego in his E63 wagon.

 

[lexusman2000]

I think as Lexus fans, it was becoming hard to deny this. I've mentioned this before, but Lexus began to shine in 2012-2013 when they introduced a new identity with their spindle grille and sportier approach. The problem, though, was that they distanced themselves too much from their heritage. I personally LOVE the new LS, but I do have to agree with people when they say it looks too sporty. It went from a luxurious "limousine" to a...kind of...larger IS. The interior is very beautiful, but it's something that should have gone in a new GS (if we had one). I think it should be more luxurious looking and just stunning like the SClass. I know some of y'all from Instagram, and I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed this, but recently a lot of people are trading in their Lexus models for Mercedes, Audi, etc. because these brands - and I hate admitting this - offer sportier versions but also have that super luxurious, high-end variants that Lexus just seems to fail to do, and I hate seeing people trade-in these great cars to the competition. Also, I am sorry, but Lexus base models are just...bland/boring from the simplest of things like non-LED turn signals in a base model (I know that's a stretch, but in today's world, non-LED lights make a car look A) non-luxurious and B) like it came from 2010). Just like the article states, I have also seen people say things about Genesis becoming the new Lexus, and that is the most heart wrenching thing to hear. I do NOT want to see this brand become an Infiniti or an Acura - outshined and forgotten by rising brands (does anyone even remember when Acura was actually so desirable? Because it truly once was). Those brands have struggled for YEARS and still can't cure their problems. Lexus really needs to speed stuff up. I am lowkey starting to dislike Toyota on account that all priority is going to them and not the Lexus brand like the ugly Mirai over the GS project. Akio Toyoda should not be able to kill off the GS just because he was never a fan of it because a lot of enthusiasts (not just Lexus ones) love it (Besides, it sold decently. It's just so dated now that it looks like it doesn't sell). I hope and pray that 2020 is the year of the Lexus comeback: going back to the luxurious roots while keeping the new sportier image (let's even combine the slogans - The Pursuit of the Amazing or something), amping up the F brand more, stop letting models go a decade without change, making interiors high-end looking (the new ES is gorgeous but the interior looks like 2010 RX's), and providing to what customers and enthusiasts are asking for! Why did it take so long for an RXL? And an SC replacement? Why is GS dying? Where's our first F Crossover? Why can Mercedes, BMW, and Audi produce all these different types of vehicles like mice producing offsprings while Lexus takes as long as an elephant carrying a baby to produce something new?

EDIT: Let me add one more thing: Lexus needs to quit it with this stupid ad campaign of "Lexus Curiosity." I have not talked to a single person that even remotely understands it. Maybe, they need to stop putting all their focus in something that is providing no outcome whatsoever and put it into producing new vehicles.

Okay, sorry for my rant. I am just so tired of seeing Lexus, a brand people used to add to rap songs, seem to fade away.

 

[lexusman2000]

Well said

Their sales figures have nothing to do with GS, F, or LED turn signals. They don't have enough crossovers and are caught unprepared as competitors fill every size segment of crossover possible.

Well, I am not your oppinion. It has definitely to do with non-LED lights. That's the point....