Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[spwolf]

This. Title is trash and another trash YouTube video with an attention grabbing title.

Falling is a little harsh because they're still #3. But its more of a drought of newer vehicles that sounded the alarm. IMO, they've kept their current buyers happy to keep their sales position despite their dropping marketshare (dropped for two straight years, 2016-18), but the need for better refreshed products to sell to conquest buyers and bring back previous owners (They are there) is becoming more apparent.

Lexus Sales Figures – U.S Market

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

www.goodcarbadcar.net

according to your link, Lexus market share is up in 2019.

I mean, this is getting repeated every week, topic seems to be beaten to death.

Their choice of doing ES and UX before another large suv and IS is already vindicated by 2019 being the best sales year worldwide.
I would guess that 2020 was supposed to be the weaker one, with refreshed IS and LM (China only) but then with covid-19 that wont be noticed at all, you will have IS then best seller NX coming out as soon as anything else from anyone else.

Basically, if their "struggling" year is one that got them record sales, what the heck will happen next year? Cha-ching for Mr Toyoda.

 

[LexsCTJill]

I don't think you should do that, because the market for luxury brands isn't the same as regular mainline brands.

We discussed it here already, but probably it was before you jumped aboard. Toyota put its resources more towards the Big T than the L, and its definitely paying more dividends than at Lexus. Like I have always said, read the two Lexus books to get the best understanding of how the brand rose up and became what it is. This is reason why many loved the brand, and why the brand may have strayed away from its roots. I own both books, and I'm sure most of the senior guys here do as well; it would be good reading material again during this SAH order.

I disagree. The Toyota brand and the Lexus brand go hand in hand.

 

[internalaudit]

I am getting sick and tired of many car reviews on YT.

They focus on same things and are too timid to voice out the really issues most don't take notice.

Only Alex on Autos seem to be able to tell torque vectoring makes a difference between the same model and don't complain a lot about the Toyota or Lexus infotainment.

Only Mark of Savagegeese talks about the underbody design ever so slightly. But he likes to ***** about minor things too.

 

[LexsCTJill]

I am getting sick and tired of many car reviews on YT.

They focus on same things and are too timid to voice out the really issues most don't take notice.

Only Alex on Autos seem to be able to tell torque vectoring makes a difference between the same model and don't complain a lot about the Toyota or Lexus infotainment.

Only Mark of Savagegeese talks about the underbody design ever so slightly. But he likes to ***** about minor things too.

You Tubers have no stake in the game. My Lexus has full time 4WD and so does my Toyota...I would not trade the full time 4WD system for torque vectoring. Our LX is now 24 years old, and out Toyota is 16 years old.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

I disagree. The Toyota brand and the Lexus brand go hand in hand.

Not quite. If that was the general case, than you might as well just stick Lexus emblems on Camrys and Corollas with leather interiors and call it a day.

 

[LexsCTJill]

Not quite. If that was the general case, than you might as well just stick Lexus emblems on Camrys and Corollas with leather interiors and call it a day.

A different philosophy between me and you I guess. I just see Lexus as an extension of the Toyota brand, you may want yourself an Avalon or a 4Runner or Land Cruiser, or even a Highlander, but if you spend the money a little bit extra, then you can get yourself into Lexus. Even a UX is just a very high end Corolla with a nicer interior. The UX hybrid system is optional in overseas Corolla hatch touring models. There are some stand alone Lexus stuff like their red stuff at the top end, but they still have Toyota DNA baked in

 

[Tragic Bronson]

according to your link, Lexus market share is up in 2019.

I mean, this is getting repeated every week, topic seems to be beaten to death.

Their choice of doing ES and UX before another large suv and IS is already vindicated by 2019 being the best sales year worldwide.
I would guess that 2020 was supposed to be the weaker one, with refreshed IS and LM (China only) but then with covid-19 that wont be noticed at all, you will have IS then best seller NX coming out as soon as anything else from anyone else.

Basically, if their "struggling" year is one that got them record sales, what the heck will happen next year? Cha-ching for Mr Toyoda.

From 2018 to 2019 IN THE USA, it was up 1.7% (Flat as they call it), but from 2016-18, it fell 4% and 7%. To me, when you trumpet worldwide sales it just seems disingenuous because you are ignoring the weaknesses. Does that really matter to a potential Lexus buyer in the US on how many Lexuses were sold in China or Europe in 2019? No, it matters more of what they get versus a BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

A different philosophy between me and you I guess. I just see Lexus as an extension of the Toyota brand, you may want yourself an Avalon or a 4Runner or Land Cruiser, or even a Highlander, but if you spend the money a little bit extra, then you can get yourself into Lexus. Even a UX is just a very high end Corolla with a nicer interior. The UX hybrid system is optional in overseas Corolla hatch touring models. There are some stand alone Lexus stuff like their red stuff at the top end, but they still have Toyota DNA baked in

Um ok sure thanks. So I'll just buy a Corolla because it has the same DNA as a Lexus because Lexus=Toyota.

 

[LexsCTJill]

Um ok sure thanks. So I'll just buy a Corolla because it has the same DNA as a Lexus because Lexus=Toyota.

Buy what you like. Every Lexus says “Made by Toyota” on the door jam.

 

[LexsCTJill]

. To me, when you trumpet worldwide sales it just seems disingenuous because you are ignoring the weaknesses

It’s all about context and you were not getting that from that video by Soyftan. It appears that Lexus is making cars for world market, and because of that it will somewhat affect US car sales. The North American market historically had cars that were designed specifically for that market, but the irony is the Lexuses of yesteryear were designed for world markets as well they were always smaller. Where Lexus really nailed down the US market was with her ES and RX cars, it’s kind of like the Starbucks of coffee, but for cars Where Lexus really nailed down the US market was with her ES and RX cars, it’s kind of like the Starbucks of coffee. Eventually when the World portfolio for Lexus Is complete and fully redesigned, at that point we might see more US specific models. A Sequoia based LX would be a monumental hit for the US market, but it would suffer outside of the US....A Sienna based Lexus would also do well in US. The UX appears to be bigger hit in the North American market than it was previously expected.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

It’s all about context and you were not getting that from that video by Soyftan. It appears that Lexus is making cars for world market, and because of that it will somewhat affect US car sales. The North American market historically had cars that were designed specifically for that market, but the irony is the Lexuses of yesteryear were designed for world markets as well they were always smaller. Where Lexus really nailed down the US market was with her ES and RX cars, it’s kind of like the Starbucks of coffee, but for cars Where Lexus really nailed down the US market was with her ES and RX cars, it’s kind of like the Starbucks of coffee. Eventually when the World portfolio for Lexus Is complete and fully redesigned, at that point we might see more US specific models. A Sequoia based LX would be a monumental hit for the US market, but it would suffer outside of the US....A Sienna based Lexus would also do well in US. The UX appears to be bigger hit in the North American market than it was previously expected.

No I got what Sofyan meant, thank you. Its pretty clear, the GX and LX are old platforms ready for a redux. That's the gist at least.

TBH, its not a bad lineup when it still sells around 300K a year. I don't know if there will be any more North American proprietary models. The GX was adapted to be a Lexus as much as the LX is. We'll see what Lexus does in the next generation. IDK if a Sienna van will do well or not, this isn't Asia. I will only say that the UX doing well given the limited capacity the factory has to make them for all the markets in the world. Hopefully 16K was their target. Its right in the mix of it with the BMW and Volvo. The Mercedes GLA was tops in the segment at 22K, and by far the oldest one in this segment (and likely good incentives needed to sell). But hey, Lexus sold 16K, that's success! I'm shocked the XC40 sold just a bit more, since Volvo has definitely shrunk the amount of dealers they have in their network (Of all the vehicles here, XC40 interests me the most).

 

[mmcartalk]

Once the unquestioned leader of the pack, it hasn’t taken the top slot in the U.S. since 2010. Its market share of 13% is down from a peak of 18.2% a decade ago, according to car-shopping researcher Edmunds.

Not surprising at all. IMO, the reason is obvious. Right before 2010, in the late 2000s, was when the bean-counters started taking over, and the primary emphasis turned from build-quality, solid materials, and smoothness/quietness/refinement in road manners to cost-cutting and more of an emphasis on sport-orientation. It has not been the same company since.

 

[suxeL]

It’s all about context and you were not getting that from that video by Soyftan. It appears that Lexus is making cars for world market, and because of that it will somewhat affect US car sales. The North American market historically had cars that were designed specifically for that market, but the irony is the Lexuses of yesteryear were designed for world markets as well they were always smaller. Where Lexus really nailed down the US market was with her ES and RX cars, it’s kind of like the Starbucks of coffee, but for cars Where Lexus really nailed down the US market was with her ES and RX cars, it’s kind of like the Starbucks of coffee. Eventually when the World portfolio for Lexus Is complete and fully redesigned, at that point we might see more US specific models. A Sequoia based LX would be a monumental hit for the US market, but it would suffer outside of the US....A Sienna based Lexus would also do well in US. The UX appears to be bigger hit in the North American market than it was previously expected.

Granted you are right about increased global sales, but that doesnt take away from the valid observations made by the author about how Lexus has basically ignored/fallen behind in the North American Market.

In addition, if we are talking about context, lets discuss Toyota as its own brand name, seperate from Lexus. Their entire fleet minus their SUVs have all been transferred onto the TGNA platform, a global design. Lexus IS, now cancelled GS, RX, NX, GX, LX are all riding on decades old platforms.

Right now the timetable for the next generation of Lexus products is 5 calendar years or longer; a timeframe where the competition is also hard at work introducing next generation platforms and possibly BEVs.

 

[LexsCTJill]

Granted you are right about increased global sales, but that doesnt take away from the valid observations made by the author about how Lexus has basically ignored/fallen behind in the North American Market.

In addition, if we are talking about context, lets discuss Toyota as its own brand name, seperate from Lexus. Their entire fleet minus their SUVs have all been transferred onto the TGNA platform, a global designan Lexus IS, now cancelled GS, RX, NX, GX, LX are all riding on decades old platforms.

Right now the timetable for the next generation of Lexus products is 5 calendar years or longer; a timeframe where the competition is also hard at work introducing next generation platforms and possibly BEVs.

Good posts and fair observations. NX and RX will come to the market shortly. I have no problem with Lexus cancelling the GS and I believe the IS will go to a partnership with Mazda.. Things take time. And for Soyfans ending where he brings up Genesis, I think he should criticize Hyundais failure to bring Genesis dealers to market for 5 years now, and Genesis sales are pretty pathetic.....I doubt the G80 will go anywhere...GV might be a moderate success.

GX and LX wil never ever increase their sales, ever again (under their current design of body on frame and coming from Japan)...I would rather have small updates for the next number of years vs a complete redesign which will just drive up the cost of those vehicles..

 

[suxeL]

Good posts and fair observations. NX and RX will come to the market shortly. I have no problem with Lexus cancelling the GS and I believe the IS will go to a partnership with Mazda.. Things take time. And for Soyfans ending where he brings up Genesis, I think he should criticize Hyundais failure to bring Genesis dealers to market for 5 years now, and Genesis sales are pretty pathetic.....I doubt the G80 will go anywhere...GV might be a moderate success.

GX and LX wil never ever increase their sales, ever again (under their current design of body on frame and coming from Japan)...I would rather have small updates for the next number of years vs a complete redesign which will just drive up the cost of those vehicles..

Thank you. Shortly to market is optimistic. IS is being heavily refreshed but will remain on the same platform (hopefully its unlike the GX for 2020 and more LX between 2015 and 2016).

NX has been pushed back
RX has just been refreshed and going to the LGNA platform is a ways away

The GX and LX will never increase is worrisome. We are in a hot SUV sales market where folks cant get enough of them....if you cant move more units then whats the issue. Is it the product or is it the sales departments?

The author of the video brings up genesis and I think they are a great terrible example.
-Genesis is investing alot to make this a competitor with all the idiosyncrasies that Luxury buyers cant do without (RWD, V8s, opulent styling, market leading tech)
-There lease rates (which accounts for a lot of luxury traffic) are also great which has been the key to sales on german brands.
-Yet Genesis as a brand has yet to show a market impact say Lexus had back in the 90s (if we use that as the benchmark).

 

[LexsCTJill]

]The GX and LX will never increase is worrisome. We are in a hot SUV sales market where folks cant get enough of them....if you cant move more units then whats the issue. Is it the product or is it the sales departments

why I said the GX and LX won’t increase is that they tend to be very expensive and body on frame stuff has a unique buyer, especially for Lexus and the models coming from Japan. I also think when looking at sales for the GX and LX, overall sales of Tacoma, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Sequoia,GX and LX should all be factored in. Lots of cross shopping between them all and so many price points are all covered. we have an LX and two 4Runners in our family, but when bought, GX and Toyota trucks were all looked at. If someone is doing themselves a disservice if they don’t look at the Toyota or Lexus counterpart and vice versa. Just my thoughts from an ownership perspective

 

[Tragic Bronson]

why I said the GX and LX won’t increase is that they tend to be very expensive and body on frame stuff has a unique buyer, especially for Lexus and the models coming from Japan. I also think when looking at sales for the GX and LX, overall sales of Tacoma, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Sequoia,GX and LX should all be factored in. Lots of cross shopping between them all and so many price points are all covered. we have an LX and two 4Runners in our family, but when bought, GX and Toyota trucks were all looked at. If someone is doing themselves a disservice if they don’t look at the Toyota or Lexus counterpart and vice versa. Just my thoughts from an ownership perspective

I think since you don't see what other car makers are doing, you don't see that Lexus could have done better. Range Rover is able to sell their expensive vehicles at the 90-100K pricepoint, with crappier reliability, but it doesn't matter to their buyers, because they still come back to lease them in 3 years. Yes the GX and LX have legacy roots, but they can only attract so many newer luxury buyers with older technology. The problem with your train of thought is that you don't look at the brands, but that kind of buyer is not the type that helps Lexus sales in significant number.

Another thing that I've read in many YT comments, there are many GS owners and admirers out there. A lot were saddening like they were here, but a lot of them are realistic about the facts, that Lexus did more wrong to the car. Instead of just a facelift for GS, they missed opportunities to implement a better infotainment system (same for the IS). Yes, the GSF was awesome, but obviously performance cars are still niche. Resisting the Carplay/Android Auto was worse than the controversial spindle grille, and to me, that's why buyers stopped going to Lexus after the IS/GS MMCs.

I might as well take your thoughts on Genesis with a grain of salt too, because you must be Ms Cleo, but you're not Jamaican, especially when the G80 is coming to market and the GS is leaving.

 

[suxeL]

why I said the GX and LX won’t increase is that they tend to be very expensive and body on frame stuff has a unique buyer, especially for Lexus and the models coming from Japan. I also think when looking at sales for the GX and LX, overall sales of Tacoma, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Sequoia,GX and LX should all be factored in. Lots of cross shopping between them all and so many price points are all covered. we have an LX and two 4Runners in our family, but when bought, GX and Toyota trucks were all looked at. If someone is doing themselves a disservice if they don’t look at the Toyota or Lexus counterpart and vice versa. Just my thoughts from an ownership perspective

I beg to differ.

-GX and LX are more expensive.
I think first and foremost the the GX and LX are pricey, however the competition is also quite expensive, even BOF such as the Navigator and G wagon that break the 100k mark.

-Overall sales should include the Tacoma, 4R, LC, Sequoia, GX and LX.
So should we also include the sales of the Bentley Bentayaga on the balance sheets for the Q7, Cayenne, Urus, and Touareg?

Cross Shopping may occur, but I doubt a customer looking into a 36k 4R would consider a 54k GX?

 

[suxeL]

I think since you don't see what other car makers are doing, you don't see that Lexus could have done better. Range Rover is able to sell their expensive vehicles at the 90-100K pricepoint, with crappier reliability, but it doesn't matter to their buyers, because they still come back to lease them in 3 years. Yes the GX and LX have legacy roots, but they can only attract so many newer luxury buyers with older technology. The problem with your train of thought is that you don't look at the brands, but that kind of buyer is not the type that helps Lexus sales in significant number.

Another thing that I've read in many YT comments, there are many GS owners and admirers out there. A lot were saddening like they were here, but a lot of them are realistic about the facts, that Lexus did more wrong to the car. Instead of just a facelift for GS, they missed opportunities to implement a better infotainment system (same for the IS). Yes, the GSF was awesome, but obviously performance cars are still niche. Resisting the Carplay/Android Auto was worse than the controversial spindle grille, and to me, that's why buyers stopped going to Lexus after the IS/GS MMCs.

I might as well take your thoughts on Genesis with a grain of salt too, because you must be Ms Cleo, but you're not Jamaican, especially when the G80 is coming to market and the GS is leaving.

Is RR leasing the real benchmark though? Yes they have been able to push leases but what happens in the secondary market when you have those returns? Are they able to recover any value or is it a breakeven where the new lease offsets the loss on the return?

This doesnt count out other marques which have used leasing quite effectively to gather marketshare though like BMW, MB, Audi, Volvo, Infinti to name a few

 

[LexsCTJill]

Cross Shopping may occur, but I doubt a customer looking into a 36k 4R would consider a 54k GX?

When we bought my mother her 2015 Limited 4Runner, we her took to a split Toyota/Lexus dealer and told her to test drove the $49K 4Runner and then the GX with the V8 for $65K...she chose the Toyota. This was after coming out of a V8 4Runner. I guess we could have bought her a Tundra limited for $50K or a Sequoia for $55K at the time. They all cross price points somehow and at some point . When we finalized the sales numbers the same general manager for sales at the Toyota side could also sell the Lexus models, so it all went to the same company or dealer in this case.

Just sharing my personal ownership experiences within my family.

Lexus has the unique situation compared to Mercedes of BMW where there are plenty of Toyota buyers not spending Lexus money. For every top end Avalon, 4Runner, Tundra Platinum and Land Crusier, those $$$ went to The Toyota Marquee and not the Lexus marquee. This why I say sales figures should be interpreted together.