Official Lexus Future Powertrain & Product Discussion

Will1991

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I think it is pretty clear that F is on the way out.... right? I was not expecting any different.
Given the only F car available is the recent RC facelift, I would say we've some 2 years to see where F is really going... Maybe even 2021, if we don't have any new full F model for 2021 I would take my chances I call it dead...

I would like to add one more thing to correct myself, I've said around here I was suspicious the reason of 2021 IS doesn't being available for EU would be to do with new regulations, but I'm pretty sure both RC300h and IS300h shared the same exact powertrain, and I haven't seen any info of Lexus giving up on RC300h for now.
This being said, it's even more stupid we're missing out such a beautiful sedan...
 

Gecko

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Given the only F car available is the recent RC facelift, I would say we've some 2 years to see where F is really going... Maybe even 2021, if we don't have any new full F model for 2021 I would take my chances I call it dead...
Losing GS obviously kills GS F, and we've seen no hardware or trademark to create an "ES F" even if it was something lighter in execution, like the GS F was compared to the M5/E63. No IS F, and trademarks seem to indicate an "IS 500" could happen instead of an IS F, which is confusing and seems counter productive for the F sub-brand. LS is 3 years in with no LS F. LC is 3 years in with credible rumors for LC F cancellation. We could speculate about a shift to performance hybrids or EVs, but that technology does not seem to exist either. SUVs are all FWD or old BOF, so no real F strategy there.

It's very hard or impossible to see a path forward that includes F, and I think the reality there has been self evident. Just my .02.
 

Gecko

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I guess the bigger question is now what future the LC has? With the LC F being cancelled, many of us were still banking on a detuned turbo V8 that would replace the 2UR-GSE. As good as that V8 is, it's down on power comparatively and getting close to needing another update or a full replacement. Killing the V8 program all together most directly impacts the LC since Toyota's belief is that the V35A-FTS is a flagship engine with plenty of oomph for LS, LX, Tundra, Land Cruiser, etc... but those are not applications warranting a sporting motor under the hood.

V35A-FTS or V35A-FTS + hybrid don't really seem like the right fit for a performance GT. Or maybe Toyota will leave the LC 500 as-is for an extended lifetime and then phase it out once interest has waned significantly?
 

ssun30

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If V8 is no more, then there's little reason to hold back the V35. Now show us what it's capable of.

If you are wondering why V8 could be cancelled or F abandoned. The answer is in every country's Q2 GDP reports. Mercedes just cancelled its coupe and convertible lineup in US. The 'Golden Age of performance cars' we experienced in the past decade was the direct result of recovery. But this time is going to be something big, worse than what we saw 12 years ago. There's no way we can pretend things will go back to normal and people come back shopping for cars with capabilities they don't need.

By the time the world recovers (if ever), high performance ICEVs will be dead for good. The LC500 may well be the last of its kind instead of LC-F.
 
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super51fan

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If you are wondering why V8 could be cancelled or F abandoned. The answer is in every country's Q2 GDP reports. Mercedes just cancelled its coupe and convertible lineup in US.
No they didn't, they cancelled the outdated and overlapping few since they have 7 coupes and 6 convertibles.
 

Gecko

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I understand that the U.S.A. is no longer the #1 global automotive market, and then you overlay the shrinking desire for passenger cars on top of that and vehicles like the LS and LC get increasingly lost in the shuffle of priorities. But something I worry about is that I don't personally think most shoppers are as ready to adopt batteries as folks on internet forums are... what happens to them? Are batteries the future? Yes. Is it the "now"? I'm not so sure, and a lot of others aren't either.

Hybrids are a good intermediary and I do believe that technology is more trusted by shoppers -- and Lexus is the leader. But killing the V8 program overall is another troubling sign for Lexus.

One of the chief complaints from LS 500 shoppers has been the lack of a V8 - this is not my opinion, this is feedback from folks I know who work in dealerships and field offices, and previous LS owners.

The LC is a pure GT coupe focused on emotional connection with the driver. It needs a new V8, and the one it has is at the end of its lifecycle.

IMO, those are two pretty glaring use cases for a new V8 for both sales volume and prestige in North America and a few other select global markets. V35A-FTS in it's current form is just not going to cut it for the LC, LF-1 or LX where people want to spend whatever it takes to have "the best." The competitors for those cars all have stronger turbo V6s and V8s with over 500hp, not to mention being super smooth with 8 cylinders. V35A-FTS + hybrid rumored to be around 450hp and 500lb-ft is a good step in theory, but probably not enough as a top tier flagship powertrain.

I think the business decision Toyota has had to make is just "Is a V8 worth it?" and it seems like the answer has been "no." For the Tundra, Sequoia and Land Cruiser that all cost $40-$80k... V35A-FTS is fine. But as you approach the flagship territory of Mercedes, Audi and BMW, it is most definitely not. I'm just not sure where that leaves Lexus.
 

super51fan

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I understand that the U.S.A. is no longer the #1 global automotive market, and then you overlay the shrinking desire for passenger cars on top of that and vehicles like the LS and LC get increasingly lost in the shuffle of priorities. But something I worry about is that I don't personally think most shoppers are as ready to adopt batteries as folks on internet forums are... what happens to them? Are batteries the future? Yes. Is it the "now"? I'm not so sure, and a lot of others aren't either.

Hybrids are a good intermediary and I do believe that technology is more trusted by shoppers -- and Lexus is the leader. But killing the V8 program overall is another troubling sign for Lexus.

One of the chief complaints from LS 500 shoppers has been the lack of a V8 - this is not my opinion, this is feedback from folks I know who work in dealerships and field offices, and previous LS owners.

The LC is a pure GT coupe focused on emotional connection with the driver. It needs a new V8, and the one it has is at the end of its lifecycle.

IMO, those are two pretty glaring use cases for a new V8 for both sales volume and prestige in North America and a few other select global markets. V35A-FTS in it's current form is just not going to cut it for the LC, LF-1 or LX where people want to spend whatever it takes to have "the best." The competitors for those cars all have stronger turbo V6s and V8s with over 500hp, not to mention being super smooth with 8 cylinders. V35A-FTS + hybrid rumored to be around 450hp and 500lb-ft is a good step in theory, but probably not enough as a top tier flagship powertrain.

I think the business decision Toyota has had to make is just "Is a V8 worth it?" and it seems like the answer has been "no." For the Tundra, Sequoia and Land Cruiser that all cost $40-$80k... V35A-FTS is fine. But as you approach the flagship territory of Mercedes, Audi and BMW, it is most definitely not. I'm just not sure where that leaves Lexus.
They need a V35a-GTS
 
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If V8 is no more, then there's little reason to hold back the V35. Now show us what it's capable of.

If you are wondering why V8 could be cancelled or F abandoned. The answer is in every country's Q2 GDP reports. Mercedes just cancelled its coupe and convertible lineup in US. The 'Golden Age of performance cars' we experienced in the past decade was the direct result of recovery. But this time is going to be something big, worse than what we saw 12 years ago. There's no way we can pretend things will go back to normal and people come back shopping for cars with capabilities they don't need.

By the time the world recovers (if ever), high performance ICEVs will be dead for good. The LC500 may well be the last of its kind instead of LC-F.
You're seriously forgetting about the North American, South American, Russian, Middle Eastern, Australian, African, Indian and most importantly the Japanese market as well as some other smaller markets too. None of those demographics are showing any signs of downsizing anytime soon nor do consumers of those markets want everything to be downsized (they may tolerate some engine options being downsized here or there but not the entire lineup for a manufacturer as they'll start losing sales). Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan were to release some mandates asking manufacturers to have a lower average emissions output among their respective lineups but even then manufacturers will be able to circumvent those rules with the amount of hybrids and EV's that they all will have.

The only market that seems to be genuinely screwed is the European market where they're clamping down on everything. A lot of European cars are now fitted with soft-limiters so drivers are unable to freely rev their cars. I don't believe this is the case anywhere else.
 
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Gecko

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^China is a big driver of downsizing as well, I think.
 

carguy420

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You're seriously forgetting about the North American, South American, Russian, Middle Eastern, Australian, African, Indian and most importantly the Japanese market as well as some other smaller markets too. None of those demographics are showing any signs of downsizing anytime soon nor do consumers of those markets want everything to be downsized (they may tolerate some engine options being downsized here or there but not the entire lineup for a manufacturer as they'll start losing sales). Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan were to release some mandates asking manufacturers to have a lower average emissions output among their respective lineups but even then manufacturers will be able to circumvent those rules with the amount of hybrids and EV's that they all will have.

The only market that seems to be genuinely screwed is the European market where they're clamping down on everything. A lot of European cars are now fitted with soft-limiters so drivers are unable to freely rev their cars. I don't believe this is the case anywhere else.
I know it sounds kinda stupid but sometimes I feel like EU just straight up hates cars in general.
 

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August 03, 2020
Lexus holds on with makeovers and hybrids

New Toyota Motor North America CEO Ted Ogawa says he wants to change the product cadence and powertrain options at Lexus to boost the Japanese luxury brand. However, the scope of his plans is unclear as the brand recovers from the COVID-19 production shutdown.

Lexus buyers are getting older, and Ogawa would like to attract a younger demographic. For now, however, the brand's lineup is expected to remain static, with makeovers of its current lineup of sedans, crossovers and SUVs and a further spreading of hybrid technology to boost performance. Ogawa could look to broaden Lexus offerings with models currently available in China, but no expansion of the Lexus lineup has been confirmed.

However, given the state of sedan sales, even in the luxury segment, look for Lexus to pare down plans to spend on its sedans while it focuses on improving its crossovers.

IS: With luxury sedan sales dipping, Lexus chose to reengineer the Lexus IS compact sport sedan in 2020 instead of a full redesign. When it arrives at dealerships this year, the 2021 IS will offer improved handling and responsiveness with an upgraded suspension, in addition to newly enhanced safety and infotainment functions. The IS 350 will come equipped with a 3.5-liter V-6 delivering an uptuned 311 hp and 280 pound-feet of torque, with an eight-speed transmission in the rear-wheel-drive model and a six-speed transmission powering the all-wheel-drive model.

ES: The seventh generation of the midsize sedan went on sale in 2018 and will receive minor tweaks until a full freshening in 2024.

LS: Before arriving in the first half of 2021, the large sedan will undergo a major freshening that will include the rollout of a Level 2 automated driving-assistance feature called Lexus Teammate. The system is expected to use lidar technology developed partly with Denso Corp. that will enable the LS to automatically change lanes, follow lanes and pass vehicles in highway driving.

RC: The low-volume performance coupe is unlikely to receive more than minor touch-ups before a full freshening now planned for 2024.

LC: Redesigned in 2017 and joined by a new convertible this year, the LC is unlikely to receive much more than minor upgrades until at least 2025.

UX: The UX compact crossover will be due for a midcycle freshening in 2023, given Lexus product cycles.

NX: The NX compact crossover is due for a full redesign in the second half of 2021, when it will be moved onto Toyota's global luxury platform. Improved driver-assistance and safety systems will be added, as will an upgraded infotainment system and an improved hybrid powertrain.

RX: The brand's top-selling crossover is due for a redesign onto Toyota's global luxury platform in 2023, when the midsize RX will be outfitted with an improved hybrid powertrain, the latest safety and driver-assist systems and upgraded infotainment.

GX: Lexus dealers would like a larger, more luxurious three-row GX midsize SUV when it is redesigned onto the GA-F platform in 2024. Look for a more muscular, performance-driven offering from a powertrain boosted by Toyota's hybrid technology, along with the latest suite of Lexus safety, driver-assist and infotainment offerings.

LX: The LX large SUV gets a full redesign onto the luxury GA-F body-on-frame platform in 2022, following the trail blazed by the Toyota Land Cruiser. The new platform will improve its technology and safety offerings, as well as its ride comfort, and make it more competitive among big three-row luxury off-roaders.

 

Gecko

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With what we have seen from LS refresh, GS discontinuation, ES 250 AWD and IS refresh, the news of deprioritizing sedans and focusing on crossovers makes sense. But... where is the LF-1?
 

spwolf

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With what we have seen from LS refresh, GS discontinuation, ES 250 AWD and IS refresh, the news of deprioritizing sedans and focusing on crossovers makes sense. But... where is the LF-1?
i think we saw that with industry CUV sales being 75%-80%, however some markets that are growingly important for Lexus are selling sedans well - China - so attention to ES makes sense, and there is definitely space for some smaller fwd based sedan there as well.
 

ssun30

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No new RX until 2023 is a disaster. That's three years later than the Highlander which would be the most delayed TNGA Lexus relative to its Toyota counterpart. All competitors are making major offensive in this most contested market yet absolutely nothing is being done.

While the RX nameplate may be strong enough in USA to maintain sales momentum, the pricing structure of crossovers is Lexus's biggest weakness in ChDM and this is reflected by their (relatively) weak sales performance. Not having an affordable and efficient hybrid option is costing them at minimum 1k/mo while competitors are saturating the mid-size family SUV market fast.

View attachment 3903


Whatever happened to the motor between the V35a and cancelled V8 here?
That is likely the diesel version of V35A for Land Cruiser 300 and other TNGA-F trucks.
 
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No new RX until 2023 is a disaster. That's three years later than the Highlander which would be the most delayed TNGA Lexus relative to its Toyota counterpart. All competitors are making major offensive in this most contested market yet absolutely nothing is being done.

While the RX nameplate may be strong enough in USA to maintain sales momentum, the pricing structure of crossovers is Lexus's biggest weakness in ChDM and this is reflected by their (relatively) weak sales performance. Not having an affordable and efficient hybrid option is costing them at minimum 1k/mo while competitors are saturating the mid-size family SUV market fast.


That is likely the diesel version of V35A for Land Cruiser 300 and other TNGA-F trucks.
Toyota said they're over with developing new diesel engines though... The top two engines above the V35A-FTS has to be a V8 or something else. It doesn't make any sense at all...
 
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