Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[maiaramdan]

I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...

I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES

I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.

About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one

 

[LEONWEST]

And it is curtains for the GS indeed. Despite having brought cancellation rumour to surface in late 2016 straight from Japan, I backtracked upon discussing it some months later with a few parties in spring 2017. Last week, I spoke with a Lexus UK rep who I ran into at a Lexus dealer outside London. He has confirmed for me, it will indeed be solely replaced by the ES. The L10 successor is no longer on schedule. In now reviewing recently updated industry database info for suppliers, some still say the same info and a few state "TBD".

The idea for the UK market, is to offer the new ES as a discount alternative to the G30 5-Series and W213 E-Class, just as the LS was targeted as a discount alternative to the W222 (and upcoming W223 S-Class), that sits between the E-class and S-Class. A new GS will no longer be coming this decade.

This idea works with LS (somewhat), but with the ES, I don't know about that at all. It is not convincing to me and a terribly cynical marketing exercise.

As for the next IS sedan, he has seen that car and it is roughly 2 years away (UK market). The RC might be absorbed into the 4IS lineup, by 2022. The possibility of forgoing the entry level luxury 2-door market was not answered directly by him, as product planning hasn't progressed to that point from what he currently knows.

Regarding the GS, I am very disappointed, after all this back and forth the past year. I want know why the individuals who confirmed 300B was coming last spring (to me privately), got their internal info from and how they missed any internal changes along the way. Especially if they attended internal showcases or had certain responsibilities, which provides privileged access.

And for those suggesting it will become a crossover, well...uhm...no it won't. Anything that uses the current nomenclature clearly will not bear the name GS, if anything other than a sedan. GX is already taken up, for the next 5 years at minimum, and GC =/= GS. GX will be updated heavily next year.

A 4-door, 4-seater sports car could bear the name GS though (just not next year at this point), but how do they justify the application of GS for a "coupe" model? Simply put, if the GS is dead as a 4-door sedan, it is simply GONE. A crossover will never be a GS, particularly when again, a nameplate factors in. The LF-1 under Project 650B will utilize flagship nomenclature and cannot use "S" in its naming. LX SportCross makes more sense. Mid-range crossover will clash with RX and NX and I don't see them doing such a model anyway, outside of a flagship model a la LF-1.

Unless this car is still being developed so much on the low as an extremely niche product (like Ford GT), I can't understand why a new GS-F was ongoing some months ago?

Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good

 

[ssun30]

No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.

Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.

 

[Trexus]

This is very sad news about the GS...:sob::sob::sob: Lexus is going the wrong way. If the GS goes away, what about the GS F. This puts a hole in the F performance line.

IS F (seriously bring back)
GS F (leaves a hole in the mid-size segment)
LS F (seriously bring it on)
RC F (still around and hopefully stays around)
LC F (seriously bring it on)

 

[Carmaker1]

Damn it feels like a wasted effort on the GS F if they're only going to have a GS for this generation.

If Lexus makes an ES F, I will be seriously disappointed in Lexus. The ES is the complete opposite of a performance sedan.

GS at least must become a 4-door coupe, in fact, that might be better because it will help customers differentiate it from the ES as a more performance-oriented vehicle over the ES which is oriented towards families.

There are a lot of rumors saying it will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.

And...finally someone mentions a tidbit of mine from a year or two ago, where I mentioned that the Mark X was going to go front wheel drive! I read that from both China and Japanese websites. Doesn't seem sensible, but I remember Toyota is trying cut down on JDM offerings.

Unfortunately, all of this plus the cancellation of the GS are why Mercedes, BMW and Audi just continue to pull away from Lexus in terms of prestige and cache. Those brands understand that everything doesn't have to be a perfect cut and dry business case with 50% profit margins. Thank god for LC - if we didn't have that car, Lexus would virtually be Acura at this point.

LOL, especially Audi. That is who has been tugging at Lexus for years and will dethrone them, if MSB becomes a thing with A6 and A8. How much of this Toyoda's influence versus that of him being hamstrung by other senior personnel?

No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.

Excellent point, that didn't occur to me until I read it. The Camry makes that an impossible proposition, if not dimwitted one at that. Unless XV70 Camry stays FWD, while Mark X TNGA-K AWD where both are sold.

I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...


I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.


I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.

The Avalon was once sold in Japan, during the first generation alongside it. A longer wheelbase GA-K with AWD and "performance focus" : unamused: might be of target.

I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES



About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one

No, just no. I think I recently said that the LX will NOT go unibody and the LF1 has no bearing on it. They are two different model programs, named 220X and 650B. One on GA-L and the other GA-F. As I typing this, the GX might easily go GA-L unibody come 2022-23 after swan song update for 2020.

There is no need to justify anything regarding the Supra, as costs are already shared with BMW's Z4. Lexus brand is not part of that agreement with BMW, for competitive reasons. Otherwise, a sporting SC coupe would've been of ease. A Toyota-only developed A100 or MK6, is the only time that becomes a thought.

Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good

You are not entirely wrong, but how recent is this information is the question? As I had similar information last year and held out hope for that very reason. There wouldn't be good business case for such a super niche vehicle, with poor economies of scale as solely an F model. Anything is possible, even if I got it straight from a UK guy that has seen the next IS and CUVs. I am not the only person who has heard otherwise.

Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.

There are ways around that. Make a fully reskinned Camry XSE/Sportivo, with AWD and some serious tuning to differentiate. Not ideal, but tries to understand their convoluted decision making process.

 

[LEONWEST]

And...finally someone mentions a tidbit of mine from a year or two ago, where I mentioned that the Mark X was going to go front wheel drive! I read that from both China and Japanese websites. Doesn't seem sensible, but I remember Toyota is trying cut down on JDM offerings.



LOL, especially Audi. That is who has been tugging at Lexus for years and will dethrone them, if MSB becomes a thing with A6 and A8. How much of this Toyoda's influence versus that of him being hamstrung by other senior personnel?



Excellent point, that didn't occur to me until I read it. The Camry makes that an impossible proposition, if not dimwitted one at that. Unless XV70 Camry stays FWD, while Mark X TNGA-K AWD where both are sold.



The Avalon was once sold in Japan, during the first generation alongside it. A longer wheelbase GA-K with AWD and "performance focus" : unamused: might be of target.



No, just no. I think I recently said that the LX will NOT go unibody and the LF1 has no bearing on it. They are two different model programs, named 220X and 650B. One on GA-L and the other GA-F. As I typing this, the GX might easily go GA-L unibody come 2022-23 after swan song update for 2020.

There is no need to justify anything regarding the Supra, as costs are already shared with BMW's Z4. Lexus brand is not part of that agreement with BMW, for competitive reasons. Otherwise, a sporting SC coupe would've been of ease. A Toyota-only developed A100 or MK6, is the only time that becomes a thought.



You are not entirely wrong, but how recent is this information is the question? As I had similar information last year and held out hope for that very reason. There wouldn't be good business case for such a super niche vehicle, with poor economies of scale as solely an F model. Anything is possible, even if I got it straight from a UK guy that has seen the next IS and CUVs. I am not the only person who has heard otherwise.



There are ways around that. Make a fully reskinned Camry XSE/Sportivo, with AWD and some serious tuning to differentiate. Not ideal, but tries to understand their convoluted decision making process.

The seventh-gen ES is still Fwd, which makes me feel sad about the cancellation of GS. AUDI has Quattro and SUBARU has DCCD, etc. They sold AWD sport cars based on fwd well, which TOYOTA hasn't. So i think its' weird that LEXUS only has ES sedan between IS and LS. I got information from the guy who works for Toyota, and he said there's no AWD plan on both Avalon nor ES. When LEXUS said they will stop selling GS in Europe, the guy said stop selling in EU doesn't mean there's no GS anymore. But he's never make it clear about the future of GS. So only the time will tell.

 

[Levi]

Point taken, but I do feel that I need to post some numbers which clearly show why Lexus decided to kill GS in favor of ES. A text conversation with krew last night led me to Google "2017 global Lexus sales by model", with the first result being a page on focus2move.com.

ES was, worldwide, the 3rd best-selling Lexus vehicle in 2017. Its 133,340 units sold were only exceeded by NX (148,377) and RX (163, 646). Most notably, ES was one of only 2 Lexus lines to show increased sales globally versus 2016. (ES +8% and NX +1.4%). And GS? It was #8 out of 10 Lexus lines tallied by focus2move, trailed only by RC and LS (the latter transitioning from 4th to 5th generation during 2017). Most notably, GS reported the steepest percentage drop (a 41.3% drop from 27,770 units sold globally in 2016 to 16,304 units in 2017).

With numbers like those, it's no wonder that Lexus bean counters pulled the plug on GS.

This shows that the GS is simply not competitive in any category: luxury, performance, budget. Lexus will either stop it, or make it competitive, and the only way to make it competitive, is a performance luxury sedan, something the GS was before. The market for such cars evolved, but Lexus did not make the GS evolve. Unfortunately, being a GT is not enough (see LC500). 'Not slow' doesn't cut it anymore, even for GT, when 'versatile' SUVs/CUVs have supercar performance numbers. GTs have to be fast. Lexus probably does not need any 700 PS GS, 500 PS could be enough, but then it has to be a lot more affordable (without looking budget).


Now I am think about it, Lexus F is behind in performance. I can't think of any new high-performance car (except American muscle cars) that are not AWD. And Lexus does not know how to make performance AWDs. All their AWD versions are slower than their RWD versions. Be it ICE of BEV, 'cutting-edge technology' is AWD + AWS.

 

[Trexus]

The Japanese philosophy known as Kaizen is constant improvement. Lexus should have done more to improve the GS. Kaizen also means to eliminate waste and maybe that's what Lexus is doing with the GS, eliminate waste. I whole hearted disagree. By eliminating the GS that's not improving it, at all. Lexus needs to build the GS to what it's suppose to be, such likes as the 5 Series, E Class and A6/A7?. I'm still feeling the ramifications of Carmaker1's confirmation of the death of the GS...It's truly a sad day for Lexus enthusiasts all over the world :weary_face:.

 

[mikeavelli]

I HAVE FAITH THE GS WILL COME BACK

AND THEN THE SC!

 

[Bluesuprarcf52]

I HAVE FAITH THE GS WILL COME BACK

AND THEN THE SC!

Yes Lexus please make next generation of those cars. GSF and SCF. Do you really think they might come back? Got any info?

 

[Trexus]

Lexus has cancelled way too many models (HS, CT, SC & GS). Are they copying Ford?

Lexus should have kept the 2018 CT and bring on the 2CT.

CT 200h
CT 200e

Lexus should have kept the HS (with new spindle grill) and bring on a 2HS (new hybrid engine M20A-FXS) to be positioned as an entry level hybrid sedan below the ES 300h.

HS 250h
ES 300h
LS 500h

Lexus needs to bring back the SC and position it as a mid-level coupe between the RC and LC.

SC 350
SC 460
SC 450h

Lexus should not cancel the GS and instead improve upon it. Is giving up on the GS really worth it? Is it the final option Lexus has come with?

GS 350
GS 500 (V35A-FTS)
GS 500h
GS F

Oh yeah and bring back an LFA convertible limited to 500 units...

 

[bogglo]

I think GS is a car with it's own mind and it as always find a way to come back stronger (we know the story of the GS 400 that started the HP war. 2006 GS 3.0 engine -- 2007 GS 3.5 engine that sent a message to its competitor 2007 GS450H well you know about that car. 2007 GS430 -- 2008 GS460. fast forward to 2012 GS was missing. came back in 2013 best handling in class and may be top three interior in class also )
with that been said, and Lexus been mute about anything GS. I think anything is possible with the GS.

 

[CIF]

I HAVE FAITH THE GS WILL COME BACK

AND THEN THE SC!

But we've already got the SC, only by another name .

 

[Levi]

But we've already got the SC, only by another name .

It depends what generation. And LC and SC could co-exist (if there was a market other than for CUVs/SUVs). LC can stand for Luxury Coupe, SC could stand for Sport Coupe, being more compact and lighter, something like a more powerful new Supra (the BMW one).

 

[meth.ix]

It depends what generation. And LC and SC could co-exist (if there was a market other than for CUVs/SUVs). LC can stand for Luxury Coupe, SC could stand for Sport Coupe, being more compact and lighter, something like a more powerful new Supra (the BMW one).

yeah more like a roadster to compete with the Audi TT, Boxster/Cayman, etc.

 

[spwolf]

It depends what generation. And LC and SC could co-exist (if there was a market other than for CUVs/SUVs). LC can stand for Luxury Coupe, SC could stand for Sport Coupe, being more compact and lighter, something like a more powerful new Supra (the BMW one).

If Lexus builds another coupe before LF-1 and GX/LX refreshes, dealers will bring out the pitchforks and burn down Lexus HQ

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Yeah. We as enthusiasts would love to see a new SC in some form, but given current market conditions they'd lose half the dealer network.

 

[krew]

I HAVE FAITH THE GS WILL COME BACK

AND THEN THE SC!

 

[ssun30]

By SC do you guys mean the LC convertible?

 

[bogglo]

Its funny how we went from is the GS going to survive to "hey Lexus we want SC also". Ok Guys let's Focus. lol