ssun30

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If 4C continuous charge rate really is their goal, then 4C+ discharge rate is on the table, which opens up a lot of possibilities for utility/performance models. I never expected SSBs to exceed 1.5C as a commercial product given how low they got in the lab.

I used to think Toyota would never try high C-rate high density batteries, but the RAV4 Prime proved me wrong.
 

internalaudit

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It's easy not to have to stretch the warranty on the combustion engine because historically and even through our own experiences, many of the more reliable ones can go 10, 15, and beyond years with just the regular oil change and spark plug changes. I know because my ex-02 Civic (never babied and only switched to Mobil 1 high mileage synthetic oil in 2015) had 273,000 km and it was chugging along fine. Other wear and tear like suspension (replaced the fronts in 2018) and rusts were taking their toll though.

There is no point offering eight years or more since we know many will last past that anyway with little pampering, though manufacturers do offer manufacturer extended warranties, the only warranties we should probably be buying if we are risk-aversed.


With Li-ion batteries, we don't know how long they will last. With CATL's announcement of a 16 year lifespan for its LFP batteries, I would suspect most Li-ion batteries won't last that long. Even on 12 Tesla Model S, the batteries are at most 8 to 9 y.o.

This is where your marketing discussion comes into play -- to allay any fear of BEV adoption. Early adopters didn't care. Those concerned are leasing. Eight year warranty may not be good enough so along came Toyota and threw a wrench in Tesla's and other BEV makers' gears. Just imagine the warranty work nightmare if Tesla were to match the UX300e's battery warranty. Early this year, it took the unlimited mileage warranty on the S and X down to 240,000 miles I believe. Nothing against Tesla's batteries as they are owned by Panasonic so I would expect them to be industry-leading but with all the fast charging, ludicrous launches, age, it would be interesting to find out how long majority of them last and at what capacity on the 10th year and beyond, when the reserve/buffer is completely exhausted.

I have a netbook with the Li-ion battery kinda shot. I'm sure we all have other equipment whose Li-ion are shot and there was no abuse. With BEVs (and I'm just a lay person and not an expert), I would expect power to go down as the battery (as a whole) deteriorates. That is going to be a bad driving experience if what was rated at 400 HP when bought new goes down to 200 HP on the 10th year lol.
 
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internalaudit

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To be honest, I don't mind the exterior looks of the Model 3 though from behind (head on), the C pillar and rear window combined looks like a joker's hat. Maybe the designer wanted the upper portion to be narrower and sleeker. But we all know that beauty kinda stops there lol.

Yes, the Polestar 2 in Canada starts around $70k but the early models include two packages (only add on would be the performance package for about $6k I believe). Maybe with the base, it would be around $62k. I think one of the issues would be the Ohlin adaptive dampers included in the performance package cannot be electronically adjusted but need to be adjusted at the dealership. I really haven't driven any sports sedan or cars with adaptive dampers but even the IS and the 2021 TLX will have this feature.

The Polestar 2's liftgate will also provide more functionality than the trunk in the Model 3. Also, that Google integration is probably going to keep the infotainment fresh for a good time. My 2015 chromebook got its last OS update this month. But then a new update popped up lol.

The Polestar Precept is looking more like cup of tea, at least with the exterior design. The Polestar 2 is looking more like a Dodge Charger (or some cars from the 80's) so it will appeal to people who like that kind of look.

I think with Germans, they are mostly going for CUV BEVs first (at least in the lower priced segments). Only BMW is coming up with a 3 Series BEV, besides the i4, that will probably cost a lot more than the Polestar 2.


I think it's so wrong for the BEV manufacturers to focus on CUV's (may eventually have to bite) and higher end vehicles like the S or 5/7 Series because I'm priced out of the BEV sedan market. :)
 

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Kyoto University and Toyota test 1,000 km per-charge EV battery
asia.nikkei.com | August 12, 2020 10:00 PM
OSAKA -- A team of researchers from Kyoto University and Toyota Motor is making solid progress developing next-generation battery technology that has the potential to cram far more energy into a small, lightweight package than today's standard lithium-ion, or li-ion, batteries.

The new fluoride-ion battery the researchers are working on, which would hold about seven times as much energy per unit of weight as conventional li-ion batteries, could allow electric vehicles to run 1,000 km on a single charge.

The team has developed a prototype rechargeable battery based on fluoride, the anion -- the negatively charged ion -- of elemental fluorine. A fluoride-ion battery, or FIB, generates electricity by shuttling fluoride ions from one electrode to the other through a fluoride-ion-conducting electrolyte.

The prototype was created by a team of researchers led by Yoshiharu Uchimoto, a professor at Kyoto University. It uses an anode, or negatively charged electrode, composed of fluorine, copper and cobalt, and a cathode, or positively charged electrode, made mainly of lanthanum. The researchers have confirmed that the prototype has a higher theoretical energy density, potentially giving it a range up to seven times longer than today's li-ion batteries.

The ranges of electric vehicles have increased significantly over the years, due to improvements in li-ion battery performance and deceleration energy recovery systems, which recharge the battery using electricity generated by braking. Some of the latest EV models from Tesla and Nissan Motor, for instance, can run up to 600 km per charge under ideal conditions. But experts say there is a theoretical limit to the energy density of li-ion batteries, which means their range cannot be extended much further.

The researchers at Kyoto University and Toyota have turned to the FIB because of its theoretically higher energy density. This translates to smaller, lighter batteries with same performance as li-ion cells, or, if they were made the same size and weight as today's li-ion batteries, could put out juice for longer between charges.

The researchers have gone for a solid electrolyte in place of the liquid ones typically used in li-ion batteries. One key advantage of such solid-state batteries is that they cannot catch fire, which means engineers do not have to worry about creating systems to prevent overheating.

The researchers are betting that a solid-state FIB battery can solve the puzzle of building an EV that can run 1,000 km on a single charge. Many experts remain skeptical, however.

The biggest challenge is that up to now FIBs work only at high temperatures. Fluoride ions are only known to be usefully conductive, that is, to move toward a polarized electrode, when the solid-state electrolyte is sufficiently heated. This makes FIBs impractical for many consumer applications. The high temperatures required also cause the electrodes to expand.

The Kyoto University-Toyota team says it has figured out a way to keep the electrodes from swelling by making them from an alloy of cobalt, nickel and copper. The team plans to tweak the materials used in the anode to ensure that the battery can be charged and discharged without losing capacity.

In 2018, scientists from the Honda Research Institute, together with researchers at the California Institute of Technology and NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory reached an important milestone with FIB technology: the ability to operate power cells at room temperature, rather than heating them to high temperatures.

In a paper published in Science, co-author Robert Grubbs, a Caltech researcher, says, "Fluoride batteries can have a higher energy density, which means that they may last longer -- up to eight times longer than batteries in use today."

Other studies are underway in Japan and overseas to find an alternative to li-ion batteries, with magnesium and aluminum ions among the promising candidates.

The race to develop such a battery is intense. Whoever develops the best-performing rechargeable batteries will become the global leader in this vital piece of technology, says Yasuo Ishiguro, executive director at the Consortium for Lithium Ion Battery Technology and Evaluation Center, a research institution in Osaka.

The battery market is lucrative, with global sales forecast to top 6 trillion yen ($56 billion) in three years.

Advances in rechargeable battery technology will not only result in better EVs. It will allow them to serve as a ubiquitous form of storage for electricity generated from renewable sources such as solar power, helping to power society with clean energy.

New battery technology will allow us to "realize a new society without making massive infrastructure investments," says Akira Yoshino, a fellow at chemical maker Asahi Kasei who shared the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 2019 for his contribution to the development of commercially viable li-ion batteries.

Researchers around the world competing to create better li-ion batteries. A LIBTEC project aims to develop solid-state li-ion battery technology by April 2023. Toyota and Panasonic are involved in the effort.

Despite growing hopes for FIBs, they will not hit the market for a while. Many experts believe it will be sometime in the 2030s before commercially viable FIBs are available. A prototype li-ion battery was developed in 1985 but the batteries did not become commercially available until 1991.

The key challenge for engineers is to find the best combination of elements -- which ions should be used, and which chemicals should make up the electrodes and electrolytes. The combination goes a long way toward determining the performance of the battery.

Ishiguro stresses Japan's advantages in this race, pointing to the technological skills of the country's universities, carmakers and materials manufacturers. But Japan is less good at chemistry and the systems integration needed to maximize product performance. The battle for supremacy in batteries will be hard fought.

The winners are likely to be those who most effectively use state-of-the-art technologies and advanced manufacturing techniques, such as artificial intelligence-based "materials informatics." This involves applying the principles of informatics -- using information science to solve problems -- to materials science and engineering to achieve development goals.

The U.S. and China, which lead in AI and next-generation computing technology, will be formidable rivals in the battery race.

To keep up, Japan will also need a strategy that incorporates mass production and market development. Japanese companies have bitter memories of losing their edge in the global li-ion battery market around 2000 to new competitors from China and South Korea, which seized market share by offering lower-priced products. Companies in all these countries are bent on staking a claim in the market for the batteries that will power the future.
 
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internalaudit

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This just means that there is more than one way to skin the cat (next gen battery technology) and that Tesla/Dahn is not at the forefront.

I would bet on Goodenough/Hydro Quebec and Goodenough/SK Innovations or Toyota than Tesla to get the next gen batteries to the masses.
 

Levi

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I would bet on Goodenough/Hydro Quebec and Goodenough/SK Innovations or Toyota than Tesla to get the next gen batteries to the masses.
Toyota IMO has does not have a good track record recently in terms of tech. Everything too late.
 

ssun30

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Partially related: Toyota's 1st EV sedan in China (collaboration with GAC) turned out to be a disaster. The GAC-Toyota iA5 (aka GAC Aion S) was a TM3 killer on paper and had a lot of hype at launch but falls well short in real world range and reliability. With a 58.8kWh battery the sedan managed only 350km in real world test compared to 510km claimed NEDC range. The 100% Toyota-engineered 54.3kWh C-HR EV manages 370km in real world compared to 401km rated. So this sedan turned out to be less efficient than a SUV that is 200kg heavier. The iA5 also has quality control problems and poor build/ride quality.

The worst part is that the GAC Aion S has had 4 battery fires in 3 months making it the most dangerous EV on the market. All fires are the NCM811 long range model with batteries supplied by CATL, and GAC had to recall all models with this type of battery. This along with TM3 fires also related to CATL 811 cells put the battery giant under fire from the media. It seems the 811 switch is premature which shouldn't be a surprise given that even the LGChem 622 isn't proven at this point.

It's okay to see TMC taking baby steps in international markets, staying as safe as possible with battery choice. The perceived superiority of indigenous Chinese EV supply chain is mostly a myth, and BYD seems to be the only reliable partner to work with.

Originally the industry predicted battery chemistry to evolve as follows:
2015 NCM433 ->2017 NCM523 ->2018 NCM622 ->2020 NCM811 ->2021 NCM811 with Si/Graphene-doped electrode->2023 NCM9.5.5->2025 Solid State->2030 Li-Air
But right now it seems the more realistic roadmap is:
2015 NCM433->2017 NCM523->2019 NCM622->2021 NCM811->interim NCM811 safety improvements->2027+ Solid State->2035+ Li-Air
And even my prediction above is pretty optimistic given the current state of academic research.

I also see LFP making a comeback if NCM811 improvements fail to deliver on safety and reliability now that BYD's LFP blade battery is in full scale production.
 
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Will1991

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With that, we need to agree with Toyota, some key technologies are still too young for mass production...

Also, it’s really nice to read about UX300’s efficient Powertrain... It shows that reliability and efficiency are still top priorities for Toyota!

Small question, isn’t Tesla at NCM811 for around two years, and rumored to jump for NCM9.5.5 in the near future?
 

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Getting lots more complaints about Tesla shrugging battery issues/complaints as long as the battery malfunction indicator isn't triggered. Also criticism of new battery warranty on the 2020 S and X where 70% capaciy isn't well defined.

Can easily spot them in the general threads here.


I think I will wait for Toyota/Lexus SSB or some magical battery later this decade. No point buying a 5-8 y.o. BEV with battery dying on the 9th or 10th year. Unless of course, the price is very right. :)
 

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Hmmm. Is this MB+ Hydro Quebec + Goodenough?
Braga/Goodenough SS battery is based on glass electrolyte, the one in e-Citaro uses polymer electrolyte. So, probably no relation.

Polymer-based SSBs has inferior C-rates (= low power and low charging) and this one is no exception. Hence, e-Citaro is offered also with standard NMC batteries.
 
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internalaudit

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Braga/Goodenough SS battery is based on glass electrolyte, the one in e-Citaro uses polymer electrolyte. So, probably no relation.

Polymer-based SSBs has inferior C-rates (= low power and low charging) and this one is no exception. Hence, e-Citaro is offered also with standard NMC batteries.
High enough power to propel and move a bus though? Still sounds like progress if longevity is much better than Li-ion.

Lots of complaints on TMC about Tesla shrugging warranty claims on Model S batteries supposedly still under warranty.

Blue Solution uses LMP SSB which seems inferior to LFP
 
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DFGeneer

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High enough power to propel and move a bus though?
Yes, but only because of the huge battery capacity.

According to MB, eCitaro utilizes two ZF AVE 130 drive axles, 125 kW each, 250 kW all together and 441 kWh lithium-metal-polymer solid-state batteries.

At full power, that translates into C-rate of only 0.567.

At that C-rate, a car/SUV with 100 kWh battery can only deliver about 57 kW (around 77 bhp). This doesn't seem too practical now, does it?
 

internalaudit

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Yes, but only because of the huge battery capacity.

According to MB, eCitaro utilizes two ZF AVE 130 drive axles, 125 kW each, 250 kW all together and 441 kWh lithium-metal-polymer solid-state batteries.

At full power, that translates into C-rate of only 0.567.

At that C-rate, a car/SUV with 100 kWh battery can only deliver about 57 kW (around 77 bhp). This doesn't seem too practical now, does it?
If 250 kW / 441 kWh = the c rate,

then a car with a 250 kW (about 330 HP) motor and a 100 kWh battery will have a 2.5 c rate? That power is just like in a Tesla BEV.

You must have oversimplified your calculation of c rate or greatly understated it.
 
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