Lexus Has Cancelled the GS Sedan

[Joaquin Ruhi]

So the next GS can be something like LF-S with the LF-X as it's cuv
I love those both concepts
And i will be astonished and very happy if they get the opportunity to live on and translated to production model

The LF-S was before the panamera , A7 and approximately all except the CLS and the HPX or the LF-X was then the first rwd based cuv / suv

In this case they will have the 4 doors coupe and the performance cuv under 1 name the GS which will be differ from the awd , fwd based ES, with LS mated to LC coupe and IS mated to RC coupe the GS will get it's own cuv sport cross

You read my mind, especially as to the LF-X Concept. Although derided by some (myself included) as something of a me-too lookalike reply to the original, groundbreaking Infiniti FX, it is, to date, the sole Lexus RWD-centric crossover concept shown by the carmaker.

Lexus definitely needs to tread carefully here. Fukuichi-san's comments that a "Lexus wagon" would be "Maybe not as tall as an SUV but not as short as a wagon. There could be some optimized packaging" sounds precisely like what BMW had in mind when it rolled out its 5-Series Gran Turismo with its height midway between the 5-Series sedan and the X5 crossover. We all know what a disaster and redundant model the BMW 5GT turned out to be...

I think it's a given that Lexus will be testing the waters with at least one concept to try to figure out which way to go. Reading the trademark tea leaves, the next Lexus concept will be LS-FC, obviously a closer-to-production teaser for the fuel cell version of 5LS, likely to debut either at the 2017 Frankfurt Motor Show in mid-September or in Tokyo in late October. Beyond that, though, the next Lexus concept may well give us a clue to the brand's post-4GS thinking. We may see it as soon as Detroit or Geneva 2018 (or even Tokyo 2017 if LS-FC debuts at Frankfurt)

 

[Gecko]

Regardless of outcome, this interview with Fukuichi is setting the table for a major change in the lineup. I would say he's speaking from a global perspective, and right now the GS is the global mid-size sedan.

He's also talking about a Lexus station wagon, so really, all bets are off.

Cancelling the GS is dangerous as well, perhaps even more so from a branding perspective. I also want to reiterate -- a world where the GS is cancelled and the ES remains the same-old automotive appliance is a world I don't want to live in.

The GS reinvented to be a left-field four-door coupe similar to the CLS or A7? The ES implementing the new Camry driving dynamics and filling up the mid-size sedan segment? That feels perfectly reasonable to me. But this is not the kind of change that has a quick turnaround. Even if this was the eventual solution, we could go a few years with no GS in the lineup.

Great points, and I agree with all of them.

Maybe we're dreaming, but I do think there's a good case to make for the GS as a four door coupe. Lexus could elevate the ES to be Lexus' "de-facto" midsize sedan and reposition the GS as a niche four door coupe, and even though that's a small market, Lexus could play here at the right price.

For comparison:

Audi A7 base price: $69k
BMW 6 Series GT base price: $82k
Mercedes CLS base price: $68k
Curveball: Audi A5 Sportback base price: $55k

DISCLAIMER: I'm speaking really hypothetically.

LS: Base 3.5L TT V6, optional 3.5L hybrid V6, optional 4.5L TT V8 (LS F), full sized GA-L architecture

LC: Base 5.0L V8, optional 3.5L hybrid V6, optional 4.5L TT V8 (LC F), smaller/mid-sized GA-L architecture

ES: Base 2.0T, optional 3.5L V6, optional 2.5L hybrid I4, midsize TNGA-K architecture

IS: Base 2.0T I4, optional 3.0L tubo V6, optional 2.5L I4 hybrid, optional 3.5L TT V6 (IS F), compact GA-L architecture


GS: Base 3.0L turbo V6, optional 3.5L TT V6, optional 3.5L hybrid V6, optional 4.5L TT V8 (GS F), midsize/stretched compact GA-L architecture

^Let's say Lexus drops a standard 3.0L turbocharged V6 into a stretched next-gen IS platform, or the LC platform. Optional is the 3.5L TT V6 or even the 5.0L V8. Lexus could easily use mostly IS or LC mechanicals and reskin them to create a GS with the only unique components being sheetmetal and interior panels.

Even if Lexus increased the price a bit from what it costs now, let's say a "GS 400" with 3.0L turbo V6 costs base $58k. 3.5L TT V6 is $66k. 3.5L hybrid V6 is $65k. F Sport is an option on any engine. You have a car that has been created with minimal investment because it draws heavily from other vehicles in the lineup and it's priced thousands of dollars below competitors. Four dour coupes are all widely seen as aspirational, which Lexus needs more of. We also know that Lexus can design a car with beautiful coupe-like proportions after seeing the LC, and to a lesser extend, the LS.

Mercedes and Audi have both used this strategy with the A7 and CLS, which borrow different mechanicals from the cars above and below them. They're known cash cows for the brands.

I think this is doable. Lexus, hire us.

 

[mikeavelli]

What Lexus needs to do is really invest in the GS. New engines and make it bigger with more styling. The A6/5/E have all grown and the GS is tight compared.

Or as KREW stated, take it to a coupe route ala CLS etc and make the ES the midsize.

Just the thought of the GS getting canned boggles the mind. Sales this generation have been good. Obviously the past few months the USA market has seen a deep dive.

 

[PeterF]

Very interesting thread. thanks to all for their comments.

I will add one thing, last week I met and spoke with a Lexus Corporate VP and specifically asked whether the GS would be put on the new GA-L platform. He said that the current GS platform is relatively new and it's too early to change platforms. I was specifically interested in the GS-F and he further pitched the GS-F to me by pointing out that Scott Pruett loves the GS-F (it's his regular drive) and thinks it's the best luxury sport sedan for driving out there. So, while he didn't say anything specific about the future (and I was remiss in not asking about the future of the GS), he certainly didn't appear to be hiding the ultimate demise of the GS from me, but who knows.

 

[maiaramdan]

The next GS and the GS sport cross
With the ES to be as A6 to Audi

 

[Gecko]

I wonder if Lexus would build other "SportCross" models considering the soft demand for the IS 300 SportCross?

My sense is that it would be easier to try to move people into NX and RX because while they really are just raised wagons, they have the stance and "SUV appearance" that most people seem to want. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not saying that a Lexus' take on something like the Audi A4 Allroad wouldn't be cool. I think it would.

 

[spwolf]

reading @krew @Gecko comments as well as Autonews interview, it seems to be like they might be talking about something like X6 and GLE Coupe. It could be based on same platform as IS/LS and yet be different enough from ES and RX.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

reading @krew @Gecko comments as well as Autonews interview, it seems to be like they might be talking about something like X6 and GLE Coupe. It could be based on same platform as IS/LS and yet be different enough from ES and RX.

A Lexus RWD-centric 4-door SUV / crossover coupe is certainly a very viable possibility, and, much as I dislike the notion, more in keeping with what's hot and popular right now than a low-slung shooting brake.

Personally, I'd be happier with a Lexus take on the Mercedes CLS Shooting Brake. In yet another cautionary BMW 5-Series Gran Turismo-like tale, however, the CLS Shooting Brake is believed to be a one-generation wonder that will die when the 3rd-gen CLS debuts later this year.

I suspect that Lexus will be keeping a sharp eye on how the Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo wagon sells, especially in the U.S.

 

[spwolf]

A Lexus RWD-centric 4-door SUV / crossover coupe is certainly a very viable possibility, and, much as I dislike the notion, more in keeping with what's hot and popular right now than a low-slung shooting brake.

Personally, I'd be happier with a Lexus take on the Mercedes CLS Shooting Brake. In yet another cautionary BMW 5-Series Gran Turismo-like tale, however, the CLS Shooting Brake is believed to be a one-generation wonder that will die when the 3rd-gen CLS debuts later this year.

I suspect that Lexus will be keeping a sharp eye on how the Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo wagon sells, especially in the U.S.

yep... something like wagon but in suv sense, thats exactly what these are... so X6/GLE-C here we come.

It would make sense too, as long as the price is reasonable, it has a lot of chance to do well.

 

[mikeavelli]

Lets look at the market and explosion of 5 doors and wagons
A7-5 door
Panamera-5 door
Panamera GT- Wagon
Jaguar XF- now offering a wagon
Tesla Model S- 5 door
Mercedes-Bringing back the E class wagon
Volvo-S90 Wagon is coming

This was unheard of ten years ago. People used to in particular frown upon hatchbacks. Now cars like the A7 and Tesla Model S has bucked that trend.

Maybe the GS comes as a 5 door....that would be exciting...

I look at my old personal needs and I agree another sedan seems isn't as appealing with a child now. I would prefer something with more cargo room or at LEAST a drop down seat. Only the Lexus IS offers it in the lineup. Really glaring omission.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Fingers crossed that whatever concept Lexus comes up with is as much a gotta-have-it, gotta-build-it grand slam home run as the LF-LC coupe was.

 

[meth.ix]

I agree with most of the comments in this thread except for a few things:

• The new midsized sedan that is FWD with new AWD system optional should be given the name of the GS, the ES nameplate should die. Because then the F model would be ES F, two names that do not belong with each other, since the image of the previous ES models will always exist no matter what.
  
  
• The four-door coupe should have an all-new name, and should it end with C or S since it is technically a sedan but also a “coupe”?
  
  
• If Lexus decides to make a four-door coupe, PLEASE give it 5 seats, not 4. This would give it a major advantage over the A7 and 6-Series Gran Coupe since they are less practical than their sedan cousins since they only have 4 seats. This may also have been the reason the IS F was not a sales success.
  
  
• The GS F would have to be AWD since there is not RWD available on the regular model, which is actually perfect since the Mercedes-AMG E 63 and upcoming BMW M5 are AWD only.
  
  
• The smaller engines on the new GS should be only FWD and the more powerful engines should be AWD only so the more performance-oriented customers can fully avoid FWD.
  
  
• The new four-door coupe should be mechanically identical to the GS, but no 4-cylinder engines or FWD.
  
  
• The new GS and mechanical twin coupe should be larger around the size of the 4LS so it can properly compete with the German competition.
  
  
• Make the FWD + 4-cylinder versions as affordable as possible around the price of the current ES.
  
  
• No F Sport on the FWD + 4-cylinder version.

My ideal Lexus sedan/four-door lineup:


IS: IS 300 - 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder with RWD/AWD, IS 350 - 3.5L V6 with RWD/AWD, IS F - 3.5L TTV6 with RWD


GS: GS 300 - 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder with FWD, GS 300h - 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder with electric motor, GS 350 - 3.5L V6 with AWD, GS 400 3.0L TTV6 with AWD, GS F - 4.0L Turbocharged V8 with AWD


To-Be-Named Four-Door Coupe: FDC 350 - 3.5L V6 with AWD, FDC 400 3.0L TTV6 with AWD, FDC F - 4.0L Turbocharged V8 with AWD


LS: LS 500 - 3.5L V6 with RWD/AWD, LS 500h with RWD/AWD, LS F - 4.0L TTV8 with RWD/AWD


And there is also a sub-IS compact sedan I would like, but that’s for another thread.

 

[Alexander Li]

Another problem. People still refuse to believe that Lexus is as good as any other German brand out there. That alone, and the fact that every F car underperforms every RS, every M, and AMG, will continue to be the main block, even if the RC F and GS F have character of their own. There are factors here, like the fact that there are people interested only in 0-60 times and would buy an M3 regardless of reliability issues. The second is looks, but that's mainly psychologically unreasonable in my mind because cars today need to stand out. Lexus was the first. If the first impression was a luxury car brand that sold cars of luxury and perfection in 1989, then that impression stays with the audience's minds. So I suggest that Lexus should build another supercar, or reinvent the GS and give it an engine that doesn't underwhelm its dynamic chassis.

 

[C.Guenther]

For me it make sense to have both in the Lexus car range: GS is and should be more the RWD-based car (ES is the only FWD sedan, because it's based on the Toyota Camry - and not everyone would like to have a Camry-Clone by Lexus). The GS should be more carrier for new technologies and design elements - and a more driver oriented (family!) car. It make no sense to have 2.5l hybrid version who are limited at 190km/h, but the engine offering should by rider: 2.5l, 2.5l hybrid, 3.5l, 3.5l hybrid (both with turbo add on) and finally a v8.
Lexus is the prime brand of Toyota, not all decisions should based on rational point of views - on the premium level it's more important to push the emotional side. Toyota have to decide where they like to place Lexus sedans - compare to Tesla, Mercedes, BMW or Jaguar (Audi and Volvo are in my opinion not really premium cars). The SUV have to find the way between Range Rover, Mercedes BMW, Porsche (Cadillac, Lincoln are more or less only available in the US-market). At the moment the sedans-range are stuck in the middle (a positive outstanding car is only the new LS).
Both cars (ES and GS) should offer worldwide and the customer should decide which is the best for him or her. But both cars should have a clear character and statement: The GS should the more sporting oriented family car: compare to BMW 5 or Jaguar XF and the ES more the comfortable rational oriented family car like Volvo.

 

[asoksevil]

I agree with most of the comments in this thread except for a few things:

• The new midsized sedan that is FWD with new AWD system optional should be given the name of the GS, the ES nameplate should die. Because then the F model would be ES F, two names that do not belong with each other, since the image of the previous ES models will always exist no matter what.
  
  
• The four-door coupe should have an all-new name, and should it end with C or S since it is technically a sedan but also a “coupe”?
  
  
• If Lexus decides to make a four-door coupe, PLEASE give it 5 seats, not 4. This would give it a major advantage over the A7 and 6-Series Gran Coupe since they are less practical than their sedan cousins since they only have 4 seats. This may also have been the reason the IS F was not a sales success.
  
  
• The GS F would have to be AWD since there is not RWD available on the regular model, which is actually perfect since the Mercedes-AMG E 63 and upcoming BMW M5 are AWD only.
  
  
• The smaller engines on the new GS should be only FWD and the more powerful engines should be AWD only so the more performance-oriented customers can fully avoid FWD.
  
  
• The new four-door coupe should be mechanically identical to the GS, but no 4-cylinder engines or FWD.
  
  
• The new GS and mechanical twin coupe should be larger around the size of the 4LS so it can properly compete with the German competition.
  
  
• Make the FWD + 4-cylinder versions as affordable as possible around the price of the current ES.
  
  
• No F Sport on the FWD + 4-cylinder version.

My ideal Lexus sedan/four-door lineup:


IS: IS 300 - 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder with RWD/AWD, IS 350 - 3.5L V6 with RWD/AWD, IS F - 3.5L TTV6 with RWD


GS: GS 300 - 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder with FWD, GS 300h - 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder with electric motor, GS 350 - 3.5L V6 with AWD, GS 400 3.0L TTV6 with AWD, GS F - 4.0L Turbocharged V8 with AWD


To-Be-Named Four-Door Coupe: FDC 350 - 3.5L V6 with AWD, FDC 400 3.0L TTV6 with AWD, FDC F - 4.0L Turbocharged V8 with AWD


LS: LS 500 - 3.5L V6 with RWD/AWD, LS 500h with RWD/AWD, LS F - 4.0L TTV8 with RWD/AWD


And there is also a sub-IS compact sedan I would like, but that’s for another thread.

Lexus will not kill the ES. It is the bread and butter of the brand (USA, China), you need to have some "volume cars" where you make money so you can invest it to create "sporty/performance" cars.

I actually really like the way Lexus has segmented its line up. The IS is short, sporty and performance driven while the ES is large and geared toward comfort. Both of them are entry level cars and the ES specifically is tackling a market where the Germans don't have an actual car for it (if you want a larger car you need to upgrade to an E-class or 5 Series) and if you want the same price, you only have the 3 series or C class.

 

[meth.ix]

Lexus will not kill the ES. It is the bread and butter of the brand (USA, China), you need to have some "volume cars" where you make money so you can invest it to create "sporty/performance" cars.

I actually really like the way Lexus has segmented its line up. The IS is short, sporty and performance driven while the ES is large and geared toward comfort. Both of them are entry level cars and the ES specifically is tackling a market where the Germans don't have an actual car for it (if you want a larger car you need to upgrade to an E-class or 5 Series) and if you want the same price, you only have the 3 series or C class.

Just because the nameplate of the ES doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean it is technically getting discontinued in my theory. The spirit of the ES will live on in the FWD w/small engine combo in the GS. Lexus can combine both vehicles into one, but I would like the GS name to live on while the ES name doesn’t.

 

[mikeavelli]

Lexus is the prime brand of Toyota, not all decisions should based on rational point of views - on the premium level it's more important to push the emotional side. .

Great point...I don't want rational all the time..its why vehicles like the X6, GLE Coupe etc sell. Its why a V-12 S65 sells in small numbers though the S63 is faster. etc etc..

 

[mikeavelli]

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/05/03/why-lexus-gs-death-rumors-arent-surprising/

Geezus I've never seen such hate for such a successful car especially compared to its Japanese competition.

From behind the wheel, the GS fails to convey any sense of excitement or occasion. It's simply a shoulder shrug of a car. When competition like the BMW 5 Series or Mercedes-Benz E-Class offer both refinement and a decent infusion of fun, it's hard to make a case for the Lexus. The ES isn't any better, but with a base price of $39,895 it's a far more reasonable proposition than a $47,305 GS. Our test car was starting to show its age, as the competition has long sailed by when it comes to noise, vibration, and harshness. Lexus quiet this GS 200t was not.

Then Autoblog re-writes history since they loved the GS for the way it drove. lol

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Then Autoblog re-writes history since they loved the GS for the way it drove. lol

Yeah, just as Car and Driver did not too long ago.

 

[Gecko]

Hey guys - moved some of the GX/Prado posts into a new topic. Let's be sure to keep this to GS/ES. Thanks!