Lexus Discontinues GS Sedan in Europe

[johnyb]

Lexus brand will have to focus on selling premium cars and fulfilling people's dreams,
this will never go hand in hand with sales reports,

for those who want to compromise (and it is unfortunately the majority of the buyers) they can get a Mercedes/BMW/Toyota,
it doesn't makes sense to try to make Lexus another Toyota brand, UX-> CH-R, ES-> Avalon.

GS is the car model that makes the Lexus stand out from the crowd and especially the GS 450h.

The only thing that had to made to the GS is a downsize to:
a 2.5lt turbo hybrid combination with a total of 350 HP.

 

[Mr1956T]

Toyota's are for Toyota buyers, no disrespect allowed = volume sales.
Lexus' are for (should be) for Lexus buyers = premium brand, only appealing to the buyers at the top end of any given market segment.
Why confuse the two?

The GS is a true premium brand car. I've owned my GS250 F Sport (the largest capacity non-hybrid we can get in the UK) for 4 months now. It's a beautiful car, in every respect. For a 2013 car, it's loaded with features that many so-called premium brands still don't have.

From a marketing viewpoint, I do not understand this thinking. Lexus, by association, helps to sell Toyota's. But don't water down the brand values of the top end player and ask it to compete in the same game as the midfield player. That's a sure way of losing the game.

 

[Steve]

Some points of view to share. For a quiet minute or two.


Rumors claim Lexus is worried the GS and the new LS will overlap

Left Lane, March 2017, by Ronan Glon

Lexus has canceled the development of the next-generation GS, according to a report published in Japan.Enthusiast magazine MAG-X learned the GS has been axed because Lexus officials are worried it will overlap with the new LS flagship that debuted in January at the Detroit Auto Show. The LS is markedly bigger than the GS, but both cars now come standard with a V6 engine. The hot-rodded, V8-powered GS F model represents only a small fraction of sales.

The global decline of the sedan segment is another nail in the GS' coffin. Crossovers and SUVs now dominate the market in the United States and in China, and the GS has never managed to truly compete against the Germans on their home turf. It's difficult for executives to make a sound business case for the development of a brand-new sedan that's not certain to meet its sales targets.

The GS' life has been in jeopardy before. As website Lexus Enthusiast points out, it was almost axed at the end of the previous model's life cycle.

"I didn't want this car. Regional management teams fought me like crazy," revealed Toyota boss Akio Toyoda in an interview with Automotive News during the launch of the current-generation model in 2011.

Like most automakers, Lexus has a policy of not openly commenting on industry rumors. The next GS was tentatively scheduled to debut next year, so we'll have to be patient to find out whether the nameplate will live on.


The Lexus GS Might Soon Be Dead But Will Anyone Miss It?

Jalopnik, March 2017, by TomMcParland

The Lexus GS sedan was always kind of the odd duck in the lineup. It was never as popular as the front-wheel drive Camry-based ES nor was as luxurious as the larger, flagship LS. A recent rumor suggests that the GS sedan may be discontinued. If this is true, I’m not sure people are going to be too upset about it.

A blog post on Lexus Enthusiast cited and translated a Japanese publication called MAG-X who supposedly has an inside scoop within Lexus who revealed that there are currently no plans to continue the GS platform. Lexus Enthusiast is very clear that this is an unsubstantiated rumor, but here is the gist of it:

• “Our scoop department found out that TMC decided to suspend the development of the next generation Lexus GS…But after the close consideration/examination of its image and positioning in the lineup, TMC came to a conclusion that the GS doesn’t/won’t play a desired role in the lineup.”

The source cites several factors as to why the death of the GS is likely. The first of which is the fact that the next generation LS is now downsizing to a V6 motor and this causes a “product overlap” with the V6-powered GS.

The more plausible explanation is the fact that buyers have, for the most part, shifted away from sedans. Crossovers and SUVs are the moneymakers now, and Lexus is cashing in with stuff like the upcoming UX crossover.

Of course, luxury sedans will always have a market providing there are enough customers that want them, and that is currently the biggest problem for the continuation of the GS; no one is really buying them. Ostensibly a BMW 5 Series or Mercedes E-Class competitor, the GS—despite respectable power in GS F form—hasn’t really been that interesting or a segment leader in some time.

According to the automotive sales tracking website GoodCarBadCar.net, Lexus GS sales were down 61 percent in 2016, with fewer than 15,000 units sold. Yet the ES managed to find almost 60,000 customers in the same year despite seeing a 21 percent drop in sales compared to 2015.

Perhaps the reason why the GS never really caught on is because Toyota corporate wanted to cancel the car after the second generation, but kept it because of pressure from Lexus executives. It seems that Toyota didn’t really put much effort into advancing the GS into something that could rival the technology and driving experience similar to the Mercedes E-Class.

It’s not looking good for the future of the GS, and while its demise is still a rumor at this stage, given the market conditions, the fact that we may not see a new model after 2018 isn’t terribly far fetched.

 

[ssun30]

Some points of view to share. For a quiet minute or two.

Just a reminder: a lot of these "POVs" are based on this site and this forum, thanks to the wonderful insight from industry insider @Carmaker1

 

[johnyb]

Toyota's are for Toyota buyers, no disrespect allowed = volume sales.
Lexus' are for (should be) for Lexus buyers = premium brand, only appealing to the buyers at the top end of any given market segment.
Why confuse the two?

The GS is a true premium brand car. I've owned my GS250 F Sport (the largest capacity non-hybrid we can get in the UK) for 4 months now. It's a beautiful car, in every respect. For a 2013 car, it's loaded with features that many so-called premium brands still don't have.

From a marketing viewpoint, I do not understand this thinking. Lexus, by association, helps to sell Toyota's. But don't water down the brand values of the top end player and ask it to compete in the same game as the midfield player. That's a sure way of losing the game.

Total agree !

 

[johnyb]

Some points of view to share. For a quiet minute or two.


Rumors claim Lexus is worried the GS and the new LS will overlap

Left Lane, March 2017, by Ronan Glon

Lexus has canceled the development of the next-generation GS, according to a report published in Japan.Enthusiast magazine MAG-X learned the GS has been axed because Lexus officials are worried it will overlap with the new LS flagship that debuted in January at the Detroit Auto Show. The LS is markedly bigger than the GS, but both cars now come standard with a V6 engine. The hot-rodded, V8-powered GS F model represents only a small fraction of sales.

The global decline of the sedan segment is another nail in the GS' coffin. Crossovers and SUVs now dominate the market in the United States and in China, and the GS has never managed to truly compete against the Germans on their home turf. It's difficult for executives to make a sound business case for the development of a brand-new sedan that's not certain to meet its sales targets.

The GS' life has been in jeopardy before. As website Lexus Enthusiast points out, it was almost axed at the end of the previous model's life cycle.

"I didn't want this car. Regional management teams fought me like crazy," revealed Toyota boss Akio Toyoda in an interview with Automotive News during the launch of the current-generation model in 2011.

Like most automakers, Lexus has a policy of not openly commenting on industry rumors. The next GS was tentatively scheduled to debut next year, so we'll have to be patient to find out whether the nameplate will live on.


The Lexus GS Might Soon Be Dead But Will Anyone Miss It?

Jalopnik, March 2017, by TomMcParland

The Lexus GS sedan was always kind of the odd duck in the lineup. It was never as popular as the front-wheel drive Camry-based ES nor was as luxurious as the larger, flagship LS. A recent rumor suggests that the GS sedan may be discontinued. If this is true, I’m not sure people are going to be too upset about it.

A blog post on Lexus Enthusiast cited and translated a Japanese publication called MAG-X who supposedly has an inside scoop within Lexus who revealed that there are currently no plans to continue the GS platform. Lexus Enthusiast is very clear that this is an unsubstantiated rumor, but here is the gist of it:

• “Our scoop department found out that TMC decided to suspend the development of the next generation Lexus GS…But after the close consideration/examination of its image and positioning in the lineup, TMC came to a conclusion that the GS doesn’t/won’t play a desired role in the lineup.”

The source cites several factors as to why the death of the GS is likely. The first of which is the fact that the next generation LS is now downsizing to a V6 motor and this causes a “product overlap” with the V6-powered GS.

The more plausible explanation is the fact that buyers have, for the most part, shifted away from sedans. Crossovers and SUVs are the moneymakers now, and Lexus is cashing in with stuff like the upcoming UX crossover.

Of course, luxury sedans will always have a market providing there are enough customers that want them, and that is currently the biggest problem for the continuation of the GS; no one is really buying them. Ostensibly a BMW 5 Series or Mercedes E-Class competitor, the GS—despite respectable power in GS F form—hasn’t really been that interesting or a segment leader in some time.

According to the automotive sales tracking website GoodCarBadCar.net, Lexus GS sales were down 61 percent in 2016, with fewer than 15,000 units sold. Yet the ES managed to find almost 60,000 customers in the same year despite seeing a 21 percent drop in sales compared to 2015.

Perhaps the reason why the GS never really caught on is because Toyota corporate wanted to cancel the car after the second generation, but kept it because of pressure from Lexus executives. It seems that Toyota didn’t really put much effort into advancing the GS into something that could rival the technology and driving experience similar to the Mercedes E-Class.

It’s not looking good for the future of the GS, and while its demise is still a rumor at this stage, given the market conditions, the fact that we may not see a new model after 2018 isn’t terribly far fetched.

You compare the GS a five star reliability car (jd power) with a Mercedes e class , this is a joke ?

 

[mikeavelli]

FYi in the UK the best selling A8 is a I-4 with FWD

 

[Yuan]

Some points of view to share. For a quiet minute or two.


Rumors claim Lexus is worried the GS and the new LS will overlap

Left Lane, March 2017, by Ronan Glon

Lexus has canceled the development of the next-generation GS, according to a report published in Japan.Enthusiast magazine MAG-X learned the GS has been axed because Lexus officials are worried it will overlap with the new LS flagship that debuted in January at the Detroit Auto Show. The LS is markedly bigger than the GS, but both cars now come standard with a V6 engine. The hot-rodded, V8-powered GS F model represents only a small fraction of sales.

The global decline of the sedan segment is another nail in the GS' coffin. Crossovers and SUVs now dominate the market in the United States and in China, and the GS has never managed to truly compete against the Germans on their home turf. It's difficult for executives to make a sound business case for the development of a brand-new sedan that's not certain to meet its sales targets.

The GS' life has been in jeopardy before. As website Lexus Enthusiast points out, it was almost axed at the end of the previous model's life cycle.

"I didn't want this car. Regional management teams fought me like crazy," revealed Toyota boss Akio Toyoda in an interview with Automotive News during the launch of the current-generation model in 2011.

Like most automakers, Lexus has a policy of not openly commenting on industry rumors. The next GS was tentatively scheduled to debut next year, so we'll have to be patient to find out whether the nameplate will live on.


The Lexus GS Might Soon Be Dead But Will Anyone Miss It?

Jalopnik, March 2017, by TomMcParland

The Lexus GS sedan was always kind of the odd duck in the lineup. It was never as popular as the front-wheel drive Camry-based ES nor was as luxurious as the larger, flagship LS. A recent rumor suggests that the GS sedan may be discontinued. If this is true, I’m not sure people are going to be too upset about it.

A blog post on Lexus Enthusiast cited and translated a Japanese publication called MAG-X who supposedly has an inside scoop within Lexus who revealed that there are currently no plans to continue the GS platform. Lexus Enthusiast is very clear that this is an unsubstantiated rumor, but here is the gist of it:

• “Our scoop department found out that TMC decided to suspend the development of the next generation Lexus GS…But after the close consideration/examination of its image and positioning in the lineup, TMC came to a conclusion that the GS doesn’t/won’t play a desired role in the lineup.”

The source cites several factors as to why the death of the GS is likely. The first of which is the fact that the next generation LS is now downsizing to a V6 motor and this causes a “product overlap” with the V6-powered GS.

The more plausible explanation is the fact that buyers have, for the most part, shifted away from sedans. Crossovers and SUVs are the moneymakers now, and Lexus is cashing in with stuff like the upcoming UX crossover.

Of course, luxury sedans will always have a market providing there are enough customers that want them, and that is currently the biggest problem for the continuation of the GS; no one is really buying them. Ostensibly a BMW 5 Series or Mercedes E-Class competitor, the GS—despite respectable power in GS F form—hasn’t really been that interesting or a segment leader in some time.

According to the automotive sales tracking website GoodCarBadCar.net, Lexus GS sales were down 61 percent in 2016, with fewer than 15,000 units sold. Yet the ES managed to find almost 60,000 customers in the same year despite seeing a 21 percent drop in sales compared to 2015.

Perhaps the reason why the GS never really caught on is because Toyota corporate wanted to cancel the car after the second generation, but kept it because of pressure from Lexus executives. It seems that Toyota didn’t really put much effort into advancing the GS into something that could rival the technology and driving experience similar to the Mercedes E-Class.

It’s not looking good for the future of the GS, and while its demise is still a rumor at this stage, given the market conditions, the fact that we may not see a new model after 2018 isn’t terribly far fetched.

I don't think the models will overlap because the LS is longer than the last gen. Pretty much ES buyers walk into the dealers for the ES without looking at anything else, and buyers that want the top model will only look at LS but for those that find the LS expensive or too long would look at the smaller GS. If GS is gone, people will just walk aways and buy from the Germans next door. GS don't sell because it's dated

 

[Ian Schmidt]

If GS is gone, people will just walk aways and buy from the Germans next door.

Which is fine. The overall point is that even when it was new the GS never sold that well, and you see that echoed in the 5 Series which has historically been eclipsed in sales by both the 3 Series and the 7 Series. If the segment isn't profitable, Lexus isn't hurting themselves by letting the Germans lose money on it instead.

That said, I'm intrigued by the idea of making the IS a little larger to sort of overlap with where the GS was.

 

[zeusus]

Many people are dumping on Lexus for dropping the GS even though literally nobody actually knows whats happening.

What we do know is that Lexus is looking to stop in Europe. What happens in Europe doesn't necessarily happen across the world.

We also know Carmaker1 posted about the 5GS production program and schedule. If there is a chance for us to know before Lexus announces it, it may have to come from him so hopefully we get some updates on this.

And even if Lexus drops the GS for good, it doesn't mean Lexus will never compete in the space again. They could be taking a break to focus elsewhere or be entering a new segment that makes more sense for the changing luxury market.


I doubt that the GS is being axed because of the v6 overap with the 5LS, because they knew they were going to put a v6 TT it he 5LS a long time ago, if thats the case then why even invest money into the GSF?

 

[spwolf]

FYi in the UK the best selling A8 is a I-4 with FWD

it is just how it works... people are being delusional if they think that mass market that actually buys these vehicles cares about all V6, V8, AWD, RWD, FWD too much.

Most of Audi vehicles these days are FWD, and most of A4 and A6 are FWD 2.0tdi...

And then enthusiasts talk about twin turbos, RWD, V8, etc. All that matters little to average buyer that is getting base engine option.

 

[ssun30]

it is just how it works... people are being delusional if they think that mass market that actually buys these vehicles cares about all V6, V8, AWD, RWD, FWD too much.

Most of Audi vehicles these days are FWD, and most of A4 and A6 are FWD 2.0tdi...

And then enthusiasts talk about twin turbos, RWD, V8, etc. All that matters little to average buyer that is getting base engine option.

Base trims with base engines and barebones interior will sell more because they are cheap so there will always be a bigger crowd buying them. Sales will always be a pyramid shape, at least until the $100k+ range (where absolute desirability is prime).

But that's not to say an ES should launch with the Camry powertrain options and call it a day. It will be a weak launch for a very important product. You see, the Germans always pair their base trim with a new "exciting" option at launch to attract crowd to it. It shows they are doing "serious engineering" and are constantly progressing. These top trims are an order of magnitude more profitable because the increase in powertrain cost is easily offset by the disproportionately high premium automakers can charge.

Pricing structure matters: base trims are there to spread the cost, higher trims are there to drive up margins. The ES technically only needs the ES200 in Asia because they account for 3/4 of the sales, but these cars barely make any money compared to an ES250 (which is actually cheaper to manufacture). And when the best selling ES in USA is the ES350 with lots of packages, there's a problem with the pricing structure: it is not taking advantage of the fact that some of these "fully loaded ES350" buyers could afford a more expensive vehicle. An inverted pyramid is not optimal.

 

[spwolf]

Base trims with base engines and barebones interior will sell more because they are cheap so there will always be a bigger crowd buying them. Sales will always be a pyramid shape, at least until the $100k+ range (where absolute desirability is prime).

But that's not to say an ES should launch with the Camry powertrain options and call it a day. It will be a weak launch for a very important product. You see, the Germans always pair their base trim with a new "exciting" option at launch to attract crowd to it. It shows they are doing "serious engineering" and are constantly progressing. These top trims are an order of magnitude more profitable because the increase in powertrain cost is easily offset by the disproportionately high premium automakers can charge.

Pricing structure matters: base trims are there to spread the cost, higher trims are there to drive up margins. The ES technically only needs the ES200 in Asia because they account for 3/4 of the sales, but these cars barely make any money compared to an ES250 (which is actually cheaper to manufacture). And when the best selling ES in USA is the ES350 with lots of packages, there's a problem with the pricing structure: it is not taking advantage of the fact that some of these "fully loaded ES350" buyers could afford a more expensive vehicle. An inverted pyramid is not optimal.

I am sure there will be very expensive versions of ES... but what I am talking about is people thinking ES cant replace GS because of FWD vs RWD and V6 vs V8 or v6tt, etc.

ES will likely have very expensive top of the line trims, like they are doing with LS and even new Rav4.

 

[spwolf]

btw, i was checking inventory levels on GS after sales report in the US, and it is not particularly high... they cleaned their stocks well in the USA as well. They are clearly putting it to the back burner, so I cant wait to see what they cooked up for the ES.

 

[Carmaker1]

I dont think Europe cares about their fleet saloons being FWD or RWD. Most Audi's these days are FWD models with 2.0l diesel. Used to be 3.0 TDI AWD... So ES will fit there well enough and sell substantially better than GS ever had... of course, it will sell nothing like NX or RX, but if price is right it will sell better than IS.

I dont think 7 seater is a big deal here in EU. They sell Highlander in Russia and even LX, which is a best seller there, but these cars are too big and too expensive for Toyota EU.

I am primarily referring to Western Europe and trust me, I have met quite a number of folks that something a smidgen bigger than the RX and just buy an XC90, Q7, Discovery, or X5 instead, sometimes even GL/GLS (large). Russia isn't really what I was addressing, as their demographics in terms of vehicle shopping, is highly different. It is why focused on the UK and surrounding areas (like FR, Germany, etc), who buy Lexus the most in that part of Europe.

The majority of FWD A6s in Western and Central Europe are diesel. Will Toyota offer a diesel ES? No they won't. Can they guarantee that a hybrid is the best alternative? Well, we will see or if it will remain in niche volume sales.

There is a difference in the longitudinal layout of the MLB Evo versus the current FWD transverse K platform for various reasons, which the Legend (RL) and Accord (TSX) echoed the latter and failed to make a dent. I am not buying a GA-K Lexus Avalon as competition to the A6. They need to do it better than that as a Tier 1 midsize offering.

It is pretty much dumping at this point, instead of investing in a sufficiently attractive and well-positioned GS product, without intra-brand cannibalization. (Then again will it be cheaper than in US?). A transverse FWD platform with AWD tacked on, is much closer to S90 Volvo than to A6 2.0 TDI, let alone E200d or 520d. Now which of those two is doing better in EU/UK overall saloon sales? Volvo or Audi?

At the high end, Toyota better have developed an AWD system capable of besting Quattro in the eyes of local prospective buyers or do not expect the best sales results. There were many things wrong with the current GS to feasibly "fix" I could point out, but that isn't my job. Moreover Toyoda's and his subordinate employees.

 

[spwolf]

The majority of FWD A6s in Western and Central Europe are diesel. Will Toyota offer a diesel ES? No they won't. Can they guarantee that a hybrid is the best alternative? Well, we will see or if it will remain in niche volume sales.

There is a difference in the longitudinal layout of the MLB Evo versus the current FWD transverse K platform for various reasons, which the Legend (RL) and Accord (TSX) echoed the latter and failed to make a dent. I am not buying a GA-K Lexus Avalon as competition to the A6. They need to do it better than that as a Tier 1 midsize offering.

It will certainly remain niche in sales because whole Lexus brand is niche in sales in Europe... they dont even have Lexus dealers in every EU country.
What helps them out of that niche status is not ES or GS or IS, but NX, RX and certainly new UX.

As to the diesel vs hybrid, I am pretty sure if new 300h was in Audi, it would be very popular option vs their 2.0 tdi. Diesels sales are dramatically down throughout the Europe on month by month basis, even in Germany, despite them issuing PRs and campaigns offering replacement vehicles if diesels get banned in cities.

Moreover, Toyota Europe has had big success with their hybrids with dramatic increase in sales last year, and it will become only better with introduction of 2.0l hybrid.

So question here is - will 2019 ES outsell previous generation GS launches in Europe, and I am pretty sure it will easily do so, and even become #1 selling sedan for Lexus EU... something that their dealers need to increase sales per dealership and expand their networks.

 

[krew]

Lexus Discontinues the GS Sedan in Europe

It's official.

View the original article post

 

[mikeavelli]

Part of me just died.

 

[LexusSteve]

I too am saddened by this news, but part of me is optimistic to see what Lexus is planning to fill this void left by the departing GS. I really like the way "Lexus RS F" sounds. Perhaps this should be the nameplate of the 4-Door coupe?

 

[mediumhot]

Well once sentence said it all: GS was positioned way too high on a price range axis in order to generate massive sales.
I wish all the luck to Lexus of Europe with new ES cause it's introduction might fix the sales numbers but it will introduce whole other issues for them. One of them will be cannibalization of higher trim IS just like how ES eats into GS sales in US. This will also be their first experience selling FWD Toyota derivative saloon as they call it over there and no one knows how customers will react to it in a long run. Second, it' pretty obvious they want to play in $45,000 range which means it will go head to head with base trims of A6, 5 and E, just for that sake I hope XV70 doesn't inherit XV60 interior cost cutting measures which were too obvious at the first glance. You could tell right away interior is in entry luxury category instead of luxury mid-size (ES= flimsy, GS= solid). All Germans in base trim come with top notch interior dashboard and console fit and finish in midsize class despite the lack of technology and veneer variety that's reserved for upper trim models where 4GS was fighting for it's slice of cake. It's not really encouraging that right off the bat XV70 interior layout is not up to par with current and upcoming mid-size Germans but once again I think Lexus will play value card where interior as pictured will be standard.

Like I said I wish them all the best but I'm sure within XV70's lifecycle they will cry for proper contemporary GS spiritual successor (RS if they manage the trademark right) to join the line up cause Luxury is all about choices and most of the time sales of your bread'n'butter depends on those products in the line-up that don't sell so well but do give the notion of choice and perceive brand strength.