CRSKTN

Expert
Messages
1,084
Reactions
1,866
I'm truly hoping that Lexus steps up their interior game as they have been sorely lacking here in the past several years. Because of their outdated infotainment system and mousepad, their interiors are considered a joke to many car enthusiasts along the vein of Infiniti. This RZ needs to be a big step up, even from the disappointing leaked new NX interior.

Uhhhhhhh
 

internalaudit

Admirer
Messages
928
Reactions
991
@spwolf , lately my opinion has changed (mostly due to some discussions on the UX300e thread).

Those who look for a Tesla, they won’t buy anything else... Tesla is so far away on a spreadsheet at a lower price... It’s a whole different costumer... Tesla is also a much more polarizing brand (love it or hate it).

Nowadays my opinion is that BEV market is divided into two, those who want a Tesla and those who don’t, who look for something else (better build quality, less issues, overall less stressful ownership)...

Don’t get me wrong, Tesla will help all the costumers looking for a BEV since they’re pushing prices down, but I see it as a different market.

Given all of the above, I believe this Lexus will go more against Polestar 2 and the new i4 than the TM3.
Tesla's are pretty good BEVs for sure and probably the most compelling at the lower price points (for budget conscious households; mine is one too but I'm willing to pay more if the spec's meet my simple criteria) but competition is coming. I also don't like that Tesla didn't put heat pumps and heated steering wheel on the 3 and like others said, the interior leaves a lot to be desired to be honest.
 

mediumhot

Follower
Messages
349
Reactions
518
Brand transformation is such a strong wording, like undoing or fixing the wrong. While yeah Lexus did neglect many things and cars in the recent past it's not nowhere near dire straits like Infiniti is in. Infiniti needs brand transformation, Lexus probably should have called it brand evolution or advancement. Just nitpicking here.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,318
Reactions
3,360
@spwolf , lately my opinion has changed (mostly due to some discussions on the UX300e thread).

Those who look for a Tesla, they won’t buy anything else... Tesla is so far away on a spreadsheet at a lower price... It’s a whole different costumer... Tesla is also a much more polarizing brand (love it or hate it).

Nowadays my opinion is that BEV market is divided into two, those who want a Tesla and those who don’t, who look for something else (better build quality, less issues, overall less stressful ownership)...

Don’t get me wrong, Tesla will help all the costumers looking for a BEV since they’re pushing prices down, but I see it as a different market.

Given all of the above, I believe this Lexus will go more against Polestar 2 and the new i4 than the TM3.

i mentioned powertrain there, not anything else. I dont think anyone will know what Polestar was in 5 years from now, i dont think it competes with anything really. Also - this is like LF-C, not crap.

So what I meant was:
- high hp, low 3s 0-100kmh (or less)
- super fast charging that actually works in practice (good battery chemistry and cooling)
- high capacity battery
- long range under WLTP/EPA
- low wh/km consumption

Then you can add Lexus quality and feel and you can price it pretty high.
 

CRSKTN

Expert
Messages
1,084
Reactions
1,866
image.png
Am I seeing things or is the middle of the car very... thin? Like from roof to bottom.

It looks like the window at its thickest is a third of the height of the body.
image.png
 
Last edited:

OlFius

Founding Member
Messages
175
Reactions
194
A proper competition for this should be the Polestar 2:


64_polestar-2.jpg


It’s a crossover coupe, a dedicated BEV, premium class.

Just hope this new BEV comes to Europe with CCS@100kw, 60~65kWh, around 6sec from 0-100km/h, option AWD and a reliable and efficient powertrain.
I think these are reasonable specs to ask for.

Polestar 2 has a lower real world range than the TM3 SR+... It’s mind boggling stupid since it’s 55kWh for the 2021 MIC TM3 SR+ vs 75kWh for the Polestar 2...

Is this called a crossover coupe? I don't see the coupe.
Looks more like a lifted sedan to me. Not a fan.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
5,778
Reactions
12,568
It is pretty simple, IMO. Long hood, shorter rear trunklid and short overhangs are a classic combination that generally always looks good. TLX does this very well for a FWD car, compared to the ES which has more classic FWD proportions with a longer front overhang, shorter hood and longer rear trunklid. TLX looks more like a performance car for this reason, though I doubt even 95% of buyers look at this or care.

Jellybean-2021TLX-Advance.ashx


usc90lec161d021003.png

I know that this forum loves to dump on Acura, but the proportions of the TLX are vastly better than the ES, and even the LS, which also has an awkwardly long front overhang for a RWD car.
cc_2018LEC360015_03_640_085.jpg

The reason I disagree is because acura is faking it. It is not a RWD car and even with its shawd it’s mostly the front wheels driving the car. Instead of making a proper RWD car they faked it. And now it has two problems. One it looks way to forced and two, interior room is no better than the smaller IS. As a matter of fact, interior and trunk room are near identical to the much smaller last generation. I’ve finally seen the car in person and while it is vastly more interesting that the last model, the front end just looks forced on. Is it ugly? Absolutely not.

Contrarily, the ES has great proportions for a fwd base car with optional AWD now. They prioritized what is is most important to someone In this class and it is room. The interior is immense and a huge selling point. And the ES doesn’t look bad at all, it looks great. I can’t say I walk in our garage and hate the overhangs. They visually have done a good job with it. I do think most past ES models were designed worse.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
5,778
Reactions
12,568
A proper competition for this should be the Polestar 2:


64_polestar-2.jpg


It’s a crossover coupe, a dedicated BEV, premium class.

Just hope this new BEV comes to Europe with CCS@100kw, 60~65kWh, around 6sec from 0-100km/h, option AWD and a reliable and efficient powertrain.
I think these are reasonable specs to ask for.

Polestar 2 has a lower real world range than the TM3 SR+... It’s mind boggling stupid since it’s 55kWh for the 2021 MIC TM3 SR+ vs 75kWh for the Polestar 2...

I don’t think anyone knows this car exists.
 

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,028
Reactions
2,347
have a look at FWD Volvos with their RWD proportions. Acura is far from there.


my fave BEVs are Jaguar I Pace on Polestar 2. Glad Lexus makes an equivalent of those, and from the side profile it is best looking, including any BEV from Germany (except of course the Audi/Porsche sedan). looks like Lexus took care of front overhang too.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
5,778
Reactions
12,568
have a look at FWD Volvos with their RWD proportions. Acura is far from there.


my fave BEVs are Jaguar I Pace on Polestar 2. Glad Lexus makes an equivalent of those, and from the side profile it is best looking, including any BEV from Germany (except of course the Audi/Porsche sedan). looks like Lexus took care of front overhang too.

I don’t think a fwd needs RWD proportions. Audi has mastered being fwd based and looking superb. They ain’t faking RWD. There needs to be authenticity. Acura had a great success with the styling of the 3G TL. It wasn’t a fake RWD look, it just was a damn good looking car. Since that vehicle they have completely missed with the ugly TL, the bland TLX and weird MMC and now the over exaggerated 2G TLX.
Acura did the same mistake with the Vigor if anyone remembers that car. A huge long hood and RWD look with a tiny interior. They did the same thing.

Relating things to this thread, Lexus has 100% heard and acted on complaints on the front overhangs. The non f-sport nx in particular was mentioned and we all know that looks weird from the front. Thus I am excited to see this concept.
 
Last edited:

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,028
Reactions
2,347
Acura did the same mistake with the Vigor is anyone remembers that car. A huge long hood and RWD look with a tiny interior.
But a very good looking car with a very interesting symmetrical FWD transmission. In their defense, most carmakers that faked RWD wanted to make RWD, they just could not. Alfa 156 is one example, Giulia finally did it, Alfa Brera/159, Mazda 6 concept was RWD, now it finally will be. Acura ZDX had to be RWD, but that platform was cancelled, ended being an MDX.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
5,778
Reactions
12,568
But a very good looking car with a very interesting symmetrical FWD transmission. In their defense, most carmakers that faked RWD wanted to make RWD, they just could not. Alfa 156 is one example, Giulia finally did it, Alfa Brera/159, Mazda 6 concept was RWD, now it finally will be. Acura ZDX had to be RWD, but that platform was cancelled, ended being an MDX.
Yes Vigor was a good looking car. Arguably their best sedan to date was the Legend. FWD but had tidy proportions of an XL Accord which also looked good.
The entire point of a fwd car is efficiency and space. Acura decided to lose both with the current tlx for style. The thing is the style is okay and I think the IS looks far more cohesive and handsome.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
2,705
Reactions
6,225
i mentioned powertrain there, not anything else. I dont think anyone will know what Polestar was in 5 years from now, i dont think it competes with anything really. Also - this is like LF-C, not crap.

So what I meant was:
- high hp, low 3s 0-100kmh (or less)
- super fast charging that actually works in practice (good battery chemistry and cooling)
- high capacity battery
- long range under WLTP/EPA
- low wh/km consumption

Then you can add Lexus quality and feel and you can price it pretty high.
Unlikely. Knowing how conservative they are, I expect the battery chemistry to be NCM622 at best. 811 still hasn't proved its safety after 3 years, so I don't think Toyota is comfortable with using it. I don't think they will use anything beyond 622 until solid state becomes available.

That being said, 523 to 622 is a greater jump compared to 622 to 811.

I don't worry about the kWh/100km consumption part, as Toyota is on-par with Tesla and ahead of everybody else in that area.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,079
Reactions
9,419
The reason I disagree is because acura is faking it. It is not a RWD car and even with its shawd it’s mostly the front wheels driving the car. Instead of making a proper RWD car they faked it. And now it has two problems. One it looks way to forced and two, interior room is no better than the smaller IS. As a matter of fact, interior and trunk room are near identical to the much smaller last generation. I’ve finally seen the car in person and while it is vastly more interesting that the last model, the front end just looks forced on. Is it ugly? Absolutely not.

Contrarily, the ES has great proportions for a fwd base car with optional AWD now. They prioritized what is is most important to someone In this class and it is room. The interior is immense and a huge selling point. And the ES doesn’t look bad at all, it looks great. I can’t say I walk in our garage and hate the overhangs. They visually have done a good job with it. I do think most past ES models were designed worse.

Whether or it's actually FWD or RWD is becoming less important in the age of AWD and batteries when we are talking about the design principles of long hood and shorter overhangs... there have been many FWD cars with nice proportions and plenty of RWD ones with awful overhangs and short hoods. It is all a matter of design choice, and then also packaging, which is definitely where Acura has fallen short. Many FWD cars have been designed with "RWDish proportions" and the Audi A6 is a great example. Audi S6 and RS6 look great, and have great interior room. The new TLX has less interior room than the old one because the platform is poorly packaged.

With no GS, it seems logical that the next ES will be elevated, so while it may have a FWD-biased chassis, I am betting there will be upper level models with Direct4, potentially F Sport Performance or even F. It's all possible with batteries, especially when Lexus could do something like turbo 4 + hybrid + direct 4 for V8-like performance, and eliminate much of the front mass needed to accommodate a V8. All the sudden a performance-oriented ES with a tidy front overhang, longer hood and more swept back roofline is very possible -- and likely.
 

internalaudit

Admirer
Messages
928
Reactions
991
Lexus has to jazz up its future offerings. It has to blend sportiness, attractiveness and availability of features.

I think the new Golf R has basic massage seats up front and also rear wheel torque vectoring. For Lexus, one has to get to the LS to get the massage seats. I'm not shelling out $120k CAD on a hybrid LS when I don't need that much interior space and when I don't like driving big vehicles just so I can have massage seats when I have a Panasonic unit at home.

I was looking at the Porsche configurator a few nights ago and noticed when playing around with the Taycan and the Macan S that a lot of bells and whistles (creature comforts like 14 or 18-way adjustable front seats and technology like PTV Plus or insulated windows) offered on the $120k Taycan can also be ordered on the $65k Macan S. I'm not saying Lexus provide that many configurations but at least think about why people who are not brand snobs are buying non-Lexus vehicles. Is it some personalization or a few creature comforts they don't find on a mid-level Lexus?

In terms of exterior design, I think Audi makes the nicest vehicles and of course they all look alike and look great except for the A7 and Q7 haha. With Porsche, sure the 911 and Cayman look great, the current Macan and Cayenne are good enough but yeah the Taycan and Panamera to me are not so good looking. The 2021 IS looks much better except for that one piece tail light design. Hopefully they get it right on the future vehicles. Instead of modifying the interior design of each Lexus vehicle to remain unique, they should get the design properly and just execute across. I'm sure the bean counters will be very happy about the cost savings. I don't think someone looking for a LS will be buying a IS anyway or a UX buyer thinking about going the RX.

^ You are right about Lexus needing to elevate its vehicles and use its industry leading hybrid technology to improve fuel economy, performance and handling dynamics. The UX, NX, ES just don't cut it for me. They're not much different from Toyota vehicles maybe except for lower NVH and nicer interiors and somewhat better handling. Well our 16 RAV4H really drives like a POS but its reliable and will do for the time being, likewise for our 11 Accord coupe and 12 CT200h until Lexus comes out with compelling products with fewer compromises (and price them accordingly, be it slightly higher than today's pricing).
 
Last edited:

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,318
Reactions
3,360
You are right about Lexus needing to elevate its vehicles and use its industry leading hybrid technology to improve fuel economy, performance and handling dynamics. The UX, NX, ES just don't cut it for me. They're not much different from Toyota vehicles maybe except for lower NVH and nicer interiors and somewhat better handling.

hm, really? I think there is larger difference between Lexus and Toyota than Audi and VW/Škoda.
 

internalaudit

Admirer
Messages
928
Reactions
991
hm, really? I think there is larger difference between Lexus and Toyota than Audi and VW/Škoda.

So Toyota TNGA < current Lexus in the handling department?

Are you suggesting that the latest RAV4 on the TNGA drives worse than the current NX?

The IS, RC, GS do come with double wishbone suspension up front and these sedans/coupe do have great handling dynamics compared to a Camry or Avalon but I think all the SUV's have Macpherson Struts upfront and we know with FWD-biased and basic AWD, how these SUVs handle not so well compared to many of the competition including Acura's with SH-AWD.

At least with Audi, they have Sports Differential (ala SH-AWD) that most VW vehicles don't have. Now the Golf R gets it.

Sure maybe most buyers don't know about torque vectoring but for those who do and can afford the $2000 upgrade penalty, it's almost silly not to opt for them when configuring a mid-level FWD-biased Audi.
 
Last edited: