7th Generation (2019+) Lexus ES (250, 260, 300h, 350) Megathread

[krew]

Video: Up Close with the New 2019 Lexus ES

Ultra White & Nobel Brown.

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[ssun30]

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.

One problem with E-Four on their current hybrid vehicles is that it's always part-time AWD. With so little energy storage in the HV battery the ICE has to work hard to keep the rear motor powered. So most of the time the 450h will drive exactly like a FWD vehicle, with the controlling unit only turning on E-Four operation when slip is detected. It's sufficient for driving in low grip conditions, but not a good fit for performance applications.

Part of the reason why I hate E-Four is how much weight and complexity it adds to solve a very simple problem. I never understand why they did not put a conventional transaxle after the output shaft of the hybrid system to get AWD. They said it eliminates the mechanical link between the axles and reduces weight, except it doesn't. They still need an electrical link and an extra set of power control electronics, as well as a very oversized rear motor that is dead weight most of the time.

 

[spwolf]

This is not true at all in N.A. Buyers come into a dealership wanting GS and are sold into an ES for the reasons @ssun30 mentions. Dealers don't stock many GSs, keep plenty of ESs in popular color combinations and then highlight how ES is "basically the same car for $10k less." Buyer feels like they are getting a value and leave with an ES. I can only speak for N.A. market, but this is exactly how it happens/happened 85% of the time - I have worked in dealers and at the OEM level for Lexus so I have seen this with my own two eyes.

It is the ES that killed the GS, plain and simple. No questions asked.

Ergh, again, we have never had ES in Japan and in whole of EU, and GS sales are not any better.

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

Last year there were 3 months of GS in stock in your average Lexus dealer, so I am not sure how many do you think they should stock?

 

[Gecko]

Sure, customers see both cars and see no reason to pay extra $10k for GS? Would they buy GS if ES didnt exist? They mostly would not... just like EU and Japan customers are simply not buying GS, despite lack of ES.

I cannot speak to pricing and packaging in other parts of the world, but I know that for a long time, Lexus has sent larger than necessary, and thus expensive, engine options to global markets where E-Class, 5er and A6 offer 2.0L diesels and are cheaper. In addition, Lexus 2.0T has never been seen as cutting edge or very efficient in markets where it does exist. IMO, Lexus has just never been able to figure out how to correctly package or position GS in relation to ES, or globally, E, 5 and A6. At the same time, Lexus has made the conscious decision to grow the ES from being a small entry level car to now being larger than the LS... most directly impacting GS from a price and size perspective.

Perhaps this new ES will give them the scale and packaging options to make it a more appealing global product - something GS always struggled with.

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

 

[LexusfanLFA]

I don't know if it is just me but every time I see the rear of the 2019 Lexus ES it reminds me of mix of 2011 to 2014 Hyundai Sonata and of the 2013 Lexus GS rear.

 

[spwolf]

But to your original point, I can tell you that in North America, if ES did not exist, GS would probably sell reliably 2k-4k units per month - it is the car consumers actually want more. I stand by that 100%.

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

 

[mikeavelli]

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

.

In its best years the GS sold 30k plus units here... the best year of the 4GS was right under 24k units its first year. Ironcially worldwide global GS sales were never better.

I think if Lexus FOCUSED on the GS if they didn't have an ES things would be totally different. Alas Lexus always had the ES and the ES has always sold like gangbusters since 1992 after the ES 250...

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

A WardsAuto report from the 7ES California unveiling includes these interesting insights and bits of information:

...Although the U.S. is the No.1 Lexus market worldwide with sales of 305,132 vehicles in 2017, more ES sedans are sold in China than anywhere else. Last year, ES deliveries totaled 60,000 units there, about 10,000 more than in the U.S., accounting for 45% of the 132,000 Lexus vehicles sold in China...

Also available is a new-generation hybrid powertrain, expected to increase penetration from the current 10% as Lexus continues with an affordable-pricing strategy that “takes some of the premium out” of its hybrid models. That game plan has worked to boost hybrid sales of the RX 33.3% and NX 167.8% in the first quarter, according to Wards Intelligence data...

The new model also represents the latest volley in an effort to lower the average age of Lexus owners. Currently, the average age of ES buyers is 67.

“With all our products we try to focus on that,” (Lexus USA vice-president of marketing Cooper) Ericksen says, pointing to the addition of F Sport packages on several models in the lineup. “Every car that we introduce, we’re trying to have a version that is more appealing to a younger customer. We feel based on the styling, technology and driving dynamics of that car that it’s going to bring a little bit of a new customer into the ES – and that is going to be a younger customer to the ES line”

Take rates on F Sport models reach as high as 95% on the RC coupe, Ericksen says. About 40% of IS sedan buyers opt for the F Sport, and initial estimates are as many as 20% of ES sales could go to the performance model...

The changeover to the new model should slow ES sales this year to about 45,000, he says, but volume is expected to bounce back in 2019 with full-year availability of the new model. Through the first quarter, ES sales totaled 9,263 units, down 2.6% from year-ago. Inventories of the outgoing V-6 model stood at 125 days’ supply at the end of March...

 

[spwolf]

It is also completely not true with them not doing enough for GS... I mean we had GS 2.0t, GS 300, GS350, GS450h, RWD or AWD.

In its best years the GS sold 30k plus units here... the best year of the 4GS was right under 24k units its first year. Ironcially worldwide global GS sales were never better.

I think if Lexus FOCUSED on the GS if they didn't have an ES things would be totally different. Alas Lexus always had the ES and the ES has always sold like gangbusters since 1992 after the ES 250...

I understand what you mean but lets look at it from this perspective - they have actually always put a lot more effort into GS, IS and LS than ES... ES is best selling vehicle and usually it is treated as a mix between cash cow and unwanted stepchild.

While ES350 has to do with Camry engine, GS always had engine with D4S, had 2.0t, had both RWD and AWD versions... also had GS300h and GS450h hybrid options.

Pricing difference is too big though - if new ES stays at similar price, then it becomes unbeatable value... GS has to change its nature completely because for $10k at current prices, it simply cant offer $10k more... for Europe and rest of the world, pricing difference is even worse due to various taxing reasons, I am pretty sure that here in eastern europe, price difference between GS300h and ES300h "will be" around $20-30k. And since ES sells well everywhere, it will sell over 200k per year, which means that economies of scale work in its favour - so it can be incentivised and they can still make money.

 

[Gecko]

It is also completely not true with them not doing enough for GS... I mean we had GS 2.0t, GS 300, GS350, GS450h, RWD or AWD.

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

 

[KOHIPEET]

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

 

[RichieRich]

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

 

[spwolf]

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

And yet ES350 with Camry engine and a lot less hp sold like hot cakes... so did RX... so did NX with 2.0t, such subpar engine.

Only GS has problem selling with better version of same engines?

So once again, another proof that they invested a lot of money into GS and did not get return. Unlike with ES, which got least amount of money invested into, poorer version of those already poor engines and then sells like hot cakes.

 

[spwolf]

After watching the new video showing the f-sport version in pure white, I have to say, it certainly is a really desirable car. The exterior design is spot-on. However, I still stand by my opinion, that if they want a chance at success here in Europe, they'll need to introduce a more powerful hybrid powertrain.

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

I dont think they will do that due to the cost reasons. 450h was simply too expensive... but their future powertrain lineup certainly shows another all-new engine above 300h and below 500h.

Maybe if they can spread the cost across larger lineup, such as Highlander and RX, they can also make another "affordable" hybrid engine with more than 215hp?

 

[Carmaker1]

GS200t/GS 300: Introduced too late and after a massive ad campaign making fun of competitors for offering base four cylinder engines. Not cheap enough compared to GS 350 to be a real value player. Generally considered not worth the money. 2.0T is not up to par with competitors.

GS 300h: I have no real context for this car - can't comment.

GS 350: Carryover engine from 2007, lack of up-to-date technology, 2016 refresh was butchered, interior has not kept pace with rivals

GS 450h: Never once any advertising/marketing support from Lexus USA, has always been special order only, F-Sport was added late term

GS F: Shows up 4 years too late and 150 horsepower short.

The best thing this car ever had going for it was a great platform. That's really it.

So on point, thank you! There was no reason to allow the ES gradually step on the toes of larger/higher offerings generation-to-generation nor be so lazy with keeping the GS up to date. The New N cars were limited in ways, that the public saw no motivation to upgrade post refresh. Plus, new E-class and 5er surely don't help. Sales were reasonable, until facelift launched during the last 8 weeks of 2015 and 2016 a steep decline.

They are having sour grapes about the low GS sales during 2016 and throwing a fit about it, when they didn't even put in enough effort. If you cannot execute midcycle changes well and maintain relevance, then don't expect any ******g sales! They knew this and want to express manufactured outrage, then cancel it. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

As you said, the ES has come out the way it is, as late 2015 and early 2016 would be when much of the development programme was solidifying (ability to react limited). Styling was set well over 2 years ago, locked in by mid-2016.

They weren't expecting this to be sole midsizer, so likely F-Sport and expansion to other markets was always in the cards.

Hey Hey Hey, Let's not forget about the GS430. I still have my 2006 GS430. My wife drives it everyday, absolutely loves it, still receives compliments on it (loaded black on black), and that V8 absolutely flies on that platform. The engine still sounds new.

The GS430 has no relevance to the incumbent generation GS and discussion related to its demise. Otherwise, GS460 and GS400 would be also brought up.

 

[krew]

First Impressions of the 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

The ES, enhanced.

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[spwolf]

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krew sums it up much better than I ever could .

@krew how was interior quality, how did it feel inside? Compared to ES, IS, GS, NX, etc? Thank you.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

I too, have reached same general consensus as @Gecko, @mikeavelli, and @Carmaker1! I wholeheartedly stand by their points. I too, also mentioned exactly the same thing they have said in another thread (I honestly forgot where it is LOL), however you responded the same thing like you've done to these guys. Look, to put it diplomatically, it's flat out incorrect. It is not because of the market, it was Lexus, who screwed this up in the first place.


The ultimate demise of our beloved GS, was because of Lexus' laziness and reluctance to actually put any effort into a product that will ACTUALLY make a difference. Everything is all Lexus' fault. It is not because of sales, customers, overall market or the car itself.


- They were the ones who chose to make an half-a**ed effort when developing the 4GS.

- They were the ones who didn't even give two sh*ts in terms of advertising and showing the world of what the GS is about, of what the GS is actually
capable of, that the GS...... was actually special, and not treated as the subordinate little sibling, tucked away in the corner, only for actually car enthusiasts (or Lexus Enthusiasts [pun not intended]) to recognize and take notice of the GS.

- They were the ones who allowed the damn dealers to go aimlessly loose for the ES, promote a weaker, more inferior product, that is in NO WAY close to the GS. Full stop. And what did they do? They stuffed customers into an ES and RX like damn sardines in a can, and shipped them off to oblivion.

- They were the ones who chose to display those two cars like supermodels, because they're much easier to deal with, for better or worse. I think you guys can understand what I mean by this, and I don't need to explain myself.

- They chose to fight other manufacturers by going the cheap, dirty and easy way. Make an obviously weaker product, and slash off the price. Because you know what? It's an Avalon with Lexus' internals and interior. You know what's funny? The Avalon's interior looks better. Want to know what's funnier? The Corolla Hatchback is miles better than that mess of an interior they put in the ES. It is honestly embarrassing what they're doing to themselves. I don't take back my statement either. Because I have defended everything about Lexus, but this 7ES is the biggest letdown, since forever.

- They ultimately pulverized their credentials by vaporizing the GS. If they have the audacity to blame sales, customers or even throw their damn dealers under the bus, which is obvious Lexus allowed this to happen, then they should immediately call it quits and throw in Mercedes-Benz/Porsche employees, with the exception of the Lexus takumi designers and reliability engineers. You tell me, isn't this an obvious sign that Lexus' new slogan "Experience Amazing", is actually just overly advertising their products into things that they're not? You know what would be easier? Actually build the real deal, to actually have the balls to truly step up, and actually fight in the world's stage. The GS, LS, and IS are aspirational cars. They're cars that make you go "yeah, what an amazing car", to which I respond, they genuinely are.


It wasn't even a few weeks ago that I was defending the hell out of Lexus. But this single release of the 7ES, I am just nowhere.

- Honestly, how the hell are they actually proud of themselves, when they're BRAGGING that the ES has more rear legroom than the LS? ARE THEY ACTUALLY TRYING TO KILL THE LS? How about the lies they are stirring in terms of performance. I am actually more excited in regards to the new Corolla Hatchback than this new ES. It has been getting such amazing reviews for a Toyota, and I am proud of what they've achieved. Sound familiar? Yup. The situation between Acura and Honda started off like this.

- What about the lackluster interior design? Don't even get me started on that. Of course quality is #1, but it looks hideous. I'd rather take the interiors from their non refreshed cars of this generation from BMW. And that's saying something.

- No AWD? Yeah. Screw you Lexus. It's so obvious that you're cost cutting even a fly with its minuscule brain can tell the mess you're in. Obviously sales are well for you guys, but the confusion you guys are stirring is beyond ridiculous.



I honestly believe this forum should put down the ES vs GS argument once and for all, for everyone's benefit. It would be much better if they slashed all RWD models and convert them to FWD. Don't worry. I'll personally support you. Just don't advertise us bs. It is hard for us to cope with the stress.

However, if we do want to keep the argument alive, there is only one solution for this. That's for Lexus to have a revolution in their lineup. You still have a chance to fix this, but boy will it take a while. I would have to create another thread of the things I think Lexus needs to do to actually be able to fight in the world's stage, once and for all.

I really apologize for these strong words that I may have used. But you can honestly understand my point of view.

In short @spwolf, my response is this. It is easy to sell and do well with an inferior car. There will be plenty of success, but they won't have an ounce of credentials. However, if they execute and honestly TRY to develop a car with the aura of specialness (is that even a word?), to work hard and stand behind their core competencies, to be sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. To try to transcend the medium and conduct something with blood, sweat, tears and NOT through being cheap. To try to actually open their coffers and spill EVERYTHING into a car, like many manufacturers. For god's sakes, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world. This way, not only will they get sales, not only will everyone be happy, not only will they be successful, they will also have the credentials that they're dying to get from the world and the genuine recognition from other manufacturers. It's honestly as simple as that.

What Lexus is doing right now, my response to them is that "you can't have your cake and eat it too" by doing it this way. They need to change.

 

[Carmaker1]

I agree with your post @F1 Silver Arrows, as that is one of the most on point criticisms I have read. I am thinking like what @Gecko had said to me, certain decision making was made so belatedly, that the ES wasn't able to be developed to replace GS with AWD and stay on time.

Problem I have is, they might try to deceptively market it as such. I will not accept that and will call them out on it. In this case, I will give the ES the benefit of the doubt on its own fine merits. But anyone trying to convince me that its a credible successor to anything other than the XV60 ES, is wasting their time, insulting my intelligence, and simply playing devil's advocate.

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

 

[ssun30]

Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.

Yes it would. Actually a turbo hybrid is the perfect combo since it hides turbo lag and improves drivability significantly.

The only downside is that a turbo ICE has lower peak thermal efficiency than a naturally aspirated one. Therefore such a hybrid system may not be optimal for fuel efficiency, but it's a HUGE step over a gas engine nonetheless.

With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.

True, that's enough ES vs GS debate for now. We have been doing this since like two years ago and repeated the same thing again and again.