5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread

ssun30

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The biggest problem with the V35A is that it is too big for its own good. It’s almost as big as a 4.0 liter V8 with none of the benefits. It’s a dumb size and goes back to their ancient 0.575 liter per cylinder design. It’s nearly as heavy as a 4 liter V8 with none of power, balance and smoothness. It's the perfect mechanical analogy of the LS 500 trying to emulate something it isn't in regards to the four-door coupe look. Fitting I guess.

But it was an easy design. No matter how “all-new” they say it is, they pulled the blueprints off the same GR and UR engines they’ve been carrying for decades and yes the 3.5 and 4.6 are semi-related in the same sense that the more modern 0.5 liter designs are between six and eight cylinders. Changing the bore and stroke and calling it all new is not very innovative.

You see you do get weight advantages by building everything around 0.5 liters per cylinder. The 6 pot is actually light and the 8 pot isn’t much heavier than Lexus’ V35A 6 pot. The worst of everything again.

The only thing wrong about the 3.5 is that it's not very favorable from a tax point of view, in certain countries with displacement tax it just doesn't work.

From a technical point of view there is no such thing as the "golden number of 0.5L/cylinder". That number is only favorable when you also consider regional policies, although conforming to regional policies alone is a good reason to go for this number. Toyota/Lexus already paid the price for not sizing their engines for displacement taxes in the past and it looks like they didn't get the memo.

In fact, there is a very good reason to have as much capacity per cylinder as possible. Modern engines are always designed around maximum efficiency, and thus require very complicated designs of the combustion chamber, the pistons, the valves, the fuel system, basically everything. These designs are much easier to achieve in a larger cylinder, since the extra volume allows more margins during manufacturing. When you incorporate complicated designs in a very tight dimension, you will have problem with manufacturing. The large cylinder also gives more space to allow for tumble flow that is one of the key aspects of achieving 40% thermal efficiency on the Dynamic Force.

The A25A four cylinder has 0.625L/cylinder, which is also shared by the similarly wonderful Mazda 2.5 Skyactiv. In fact, Toyota even showed how the 0.625L/cylinder A25A has slightly better tumble flow and heat release rate than the 0.5L/cylinder A20A on their own website.

https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain2018/engine/

Automakers always try to go for maximum capacity per cylinder. Even BMW itself made the choice with the three-cylinder B38. Yes it is a 0.5L/cylinder but that is a lot for a three cylinder. How much capacity per cylinder you can get is related to the inherent balance of the engine layout. When you have a very smooth engine, you can basically get very high capacities since the vibrations don't add a lot of stress. That is why you see Inline-6s and V8s in high capacity engines for commercial and military vehicles. For an Inline-3, the vibration adds so much stress that a 1.5L needs a lot of extra reinforcement and vibration dampening. The auto industry once considered 433cc/cylinder (1.3L) was the upper limit for a practical Inline-3 engine, which is what GM settled with. But BMW (and Ford) still went through all the trouble to make that 1.5L because it is just more efficienct than a similar 1.5L Inline-4.

The weight part is just non-sense. In fact the 3.0L, 3.5L, and 4.0L GR engines all have the similar weight (at ~170kg). There is no direct correlation between displacement per cylinder and engine weight but it's all down to design specifics and materials choices. The LFA's 4.8L V10 is lighter than the 3.5L V6. The 6.2L LT1 is lighter than the 4.4L N63. Also, power density is rarely the main objective for engine designers otherwise everyone will be building OHVs or rotaries; there is a weight penalty for trying to be efficient.

I suggest that you actually do some reading on Dynamic Force and try to understand how engineers made their design choices. I don't think calling the engineers responsible for making the second (or maybe third) best engine in the world uninnovative makes you look any smarter.

You simply missed the point of why the V35A is an awkward engine. The engine itself is technically sound, but it just doesn't play well with certain policies of certain governments and that is the core of the problem.
 
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Berto3818

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Thanks for the teaching sir. As I said I’m totally new to the fam and just trying to learn a bit. I’ll do some research and then update what I know.

R,


Markus
 

ssun30

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I know you’re all going to hate me for saying this, but I do believe that all of the engines yet to come out will be complete duds.

Long-stroke, thermally-efficient engines suitable for anything BUT speed and performance. Mark my words. I say this based on past and current precedence.

They can spin it and overhype it all they want, but as soon as people actually drive whatever new engines come out, dissapointment will ensue.

Sorry, just being brutally honest. They will say this engine and car can perform like this and it will all be a lie.

I get your point, the Lamborghini V10 has a 92.5mm stroke so it must be a bad performance engine. The Mercedes F1 engine must have terrible performance since they somehow get 50% thermal efficiency which is more efficient than a Prius. Makes a ton of sense.

There are two ways to make a lot of power: burning more fuel or making more out of the same amount of fuel. Modern engines are powerful because they are efficient. This is not the 80s when crazy powers are made by irresponsive burning of fuel. 40% thermal efficiency means getting 10% more power for the same fuel consumption than 36% thermal efficiency, simple maths. But I guess maths doesn't work for you.
 

Levi

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But it was an easy design. No matter how “all-new” they say it is, they pulled the blueprints off the same GR and UR engines they’ve been carrying for decades and yes the 3.5 and 4.6 are semi-related in the same sense that the more modern 0.5 liter designs are between six and eight cylinders. Changing the bore and stroke and calling it all new is not very innovative.

Such an unfair statement, that applies way more to those that you keep praising.



And tell me, if more cylinders and a smoother engine is better and the only thing worth, why are you fine with V8's replacing V12's? You know, M8 does do get any V12 as it should! And don't tell me "because race car", it weighs 2.000 kg.
 

mediumhot

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The biggest problem with the V35A is that it is too big for its own good. It’s almost as big as a 4.0 liter V8 with none of the benefits. It’s a dumb size and goes back to their ancient 0.575 liter per cylinder design. It’s nearly as heavy as a 4 liter V8 with none of power, balance and smoothness.

That is the reason why we will not see this engine in IS/RC and other small cars. It doesn't make sense to shove in that heavy monstrosity into small chassis, I mean they could but that would be F model then not your IS350 replacement.
 

Ian Schmidt

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However, even if Lexus did keep the 5LS's sporty low slung dynamic niche body style with a cosy interior - the 5LS could still sell reasonably well, with successful sales similar to the old 3GS in relative terms - if the 5LS has more inspired L-Finesse type rear quarter styling at its midlife update.

I expect the midlife update to look like the LF-LC in the rear, which would be great.

That is the reason why we will not see this engine in IS/RC and other small cars. It doesn't make sense to shove in that heavy monstrosity into small chassis, I mean they could but that would be F model then not your IS350 replacement.

I think the V35A in an IS F would be one hell of a good time. But what do I know, I think it's a good time in the LS500 too :)

Funny story - I was stopping at Wegmans (God's own grocery store - sorry non-Mid-Atlantic peeps!) yesterday and when I got out of the LS a woman walking towards an RX stopped and said "Great car, isn't it? My husband just got one and we love it!".
 

Berto3818

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@Ian Schmidt I can truly attest to that! I drove it and I know what it can do. Its a very nice motor indeed. I don't see why everyone is knocking it in the 5LS.... it is a awesome car and I can't wait to get mine soon!!

R,

Markus
 

Gecko

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Another possibility is that the traditional tall upright spacious sedan is extinct!
In its place is a choice between a sporty dynamic low slung sedan like the current 5LS, or a full size luxury SUV tall wagen.

I think this is just the new reality.
 

Ian Schmidt

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Headroom *in* the car is fine for me (I'm 6'1"), it's headroom getting in and out. The door openings are shorter than the 4LS, partially due to the lower factory ride height of the car and partially due to the coupe roofline. This isn't just an LS problem, it's, as @Gecko said, the new reality until coupe-looking sedans go out of fashion.
 

Berto3818

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@Ian Schmidt sounds good. I was comfortable in the car but since then I have lost 204 pounds used to weight 410 so I suspect i will look good in the 5LS. couldnt say that a year or so ago.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I love ya Markus, but that's not a dyno test, that's a commercial. And they forgot the champaign glasses!
 

Berto3818

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@Ian Schmidt your right!!! I wonder the true power of that motor through dyno! And yes the glasses would have just made this commercial amazing just like over 20 years ago!!

@Ian Schmidt you got to admit that motor was high revving and he was snatching those gears!!
 
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Berto3818

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Hello Sir, that's a high volume either way. it didn't hit their mark sir but still lots of LS's being pushed out the door. very good being we are heading into the 3rd quarter of the year! Soon I will have mine and it will boost sales even further. In my eyes it has been a total success so far and only going to get better.

R,

Markus
 

Gecko

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By Lexus' own expectations, the car is underperforming. I am glad you think otherwise however.
 
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