5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread

[Rydo]

Why not just offer a V8 at least, don't restrict engine choices?

You can wax lyrically about how good the TTV6 is and that's fine, but at least offer a V8 for those where that will be a dealbreaker (and there will be).

 

[Gecko]

There will be a V8 - it's just going to cost $100k or more, so basically, you'll be able to buy an LS F for about the same price as a decently optioned S560.

 

[Rhambler]

It will be interesting where Lexus prices the v6. If it prices it in the same league as the German V8s, it will never sell, especially if the actual performance falls well short of what Lexus thinks it will perform.

I honestly believe Lexus will price it like a BMW 750 or A8 4.0t. I also believe because of this and because it will probably perform worse than comparable V6s yet priced like a V8, it won't sell.

0-60 times isn't everything but it's definetely part of the equation. Ignore it at your own peril. Look at Lexus now, most of their lineup is falling off the sales chart and they're all slow and boring and boring is synonymous with slow. I recently got a very fast, large and comfortable car and that speed is amazing. Being able to switch from a comfortable cruiser to absolute stop light beast at the press of the button is amazing and something the LS 460 lacked big time. I didn't appreciate it because I never experienced it, but once you do, there's no going back.

 

[Gecko]

It will be interesting where Lexus prices the v6. If it prices it in the same league as the German V8s, it will never sell, especially if the actual performance falls well short of what Lexus thinks it will perform.

I honestly believe Lexus will price it like a BMW 750 or A8 4.0t. I also believe because of this and because it will probably perform worse than comparable V6s yet priced like a V8, it won't sell.

0-60 times isn't everything but it's definetely part of the equation. Ignore it at your own peril. Look at Lexus now, most of their lineup is falling off the sales chart and they're all slow and boring and boring is synonymous with slow. I recently got a very fast, large and comfortable car and that speed is amazing. Being able to switch from a comfortable cruiser to absolute stop light beast at the press of the button is amazing and something the LS 460 lacked big time. I didn't appreciate it because I never experienced it, but once you do, there's no going back.

You continue to make the same assumptions over and over again with absolutely no factual data, so at this point, all we can do is wait to see how Lexus prices the car and also how it performs.

 

[Rhambler]

Well that is the point of these forums to some extent: speculate on what may come.

I made no declarations that what I'm saying is factual. It's just like the posts saying a 600 HP v8 tt is coming. It's all speculation.

However, if you rewind and go back, I tried to make sound arguments as to why I believe it will be as such.

Heck people all over Clublexus were up in arms when I suggested it needed to be priced like the German V6s.

But you're right, we shall see...

 

[mikeavelli]

Another thing is MSRP means less when most of these cars are discounted and leased aggressively. BMW offered some ridiculous incentives to me to get out of my LS.....

 

[meth.ix]

Also, some rich people have a big ego, so they like knowing that they have ***hp in their car, go 0-60 under 4 secs, etc. even though these things are irrelevant to them because their drivers will never actually go so fast. That's why 12-cylinder versions of the S-Class and previous A8 existed, some people like to know that they have a dozen cylinders pulling them around.

 

[Max323]

There was a LS preview in Shanghai yesterday. Many people disappointed about the small rear seat space compare to its competitors.

 

[mmcartalk]

Also, some rich people have a big ego, so they like knowing that they have ***hp in their car, go 0-60 under 4 secs, etc. even though these things are irrelevant to them because their drivers will never actually go so fast. That's why 12-cylinder versions of the S-Class and previous A8 existed, some people like to know that they have a dozen cylinders pulling them around.

...Not only that, but some of those (never-satisfied) people, IMO, are just plain obnoxious to be around. No matter what they have, or drive, they are never content with the power level or the perceived prestige-level......they always want more. Fortunately, I have seen very little of that in the Lexus Enthusiast forum....but it is more common in some other forums.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

...Not only that, but some of those (never-satisfied) people, IMO, are just plain obnoxious to be around. No matter what they have, or drive, they are never content with the power level or the perceived prestige-level......they always want more.

I saw one of those people for real today. I was driving on a 2-lane 40 MPH road with a thick forest up against both sides (as happens a lot in north-central Maryland) doing about 45 behind someone in a 3 Series. Out of nowhere an AMG Benz goes blasting past us in the left lane probably doing 60 and just makes it back into the right lane ahead of oncoming traffic. I had to laugh, because he paid a lot of money to go 15 more MPH than the BMW and I, and I was just enjoying the ride and the scenery (as one does in an LS).

 

[ssun30]

If you think anyone is buying flagship luxury sedans solely because of a few tenths of a second 0-60, you don't understand anything about this segment.

The LS is 11 years old and the S Class and 7 Series have seen 2 full generations since it was introduced.

Of course every single luxury sedan out there is overpowered. All of them (at least non-AWD models) are completely traction limited; adding power just brings more headache. The same applies to all performance vehicles. None of them could put down power efficiently so this entire engine arms race is stupid. Compared to the European/American power monsters the GS F is much more refined and balanced because 470hp is about the limit a RWD vehicle with road tires can handle.

But that's not the point. People buy luxury vehicles as a symbol of social status. The acceleration figures may not matter, but that three digit "power equivalence rating" is very relevant. Take the Chinese market as an example, there is no single stretch of road in the entire nation on which one can do a full throttle quarter mile, because there are speed cameras in every corner. But people want cars with big "displacement number" (S550, 750Li, A8 50TFSI). Here even Corollas and Civics have that three digit number for people to show off. When an entry level ES (200) has a smaller number than a Civic (220), there is a problem. Bigger numbers make things sell. It's not like people really need a 20 mega pixel camera in their phones, but they buy them anyway.

And to be fair Lexus was the one who started this acceleration/power arms race. People didn't believe a practical FWD car could handle more than 250hp until Lexus did the ES350. The GS400/430/460 gave Lexus the bragging right of having the fastest four door sedan for almost a decade.

 

[Gecko]

Of course every single luxury sedan out there is overpowered. All of them (at least non-AWD models) are completely traction limited; adding power just brings more headache. The same applies to all performance vehicles. None of them could put down power efficiently so this entire engine arms race is stupid. Compared to the European/American power monsters the GS F is much more refined and balanced because 470hp is about the limit a RWD vehicle with road tires can handle.

But that's not the point. People buy luxury vehicles as a symbol of social status. The acceleration figures may not matter, but that three digit "power equivalence rating" is very relevant. Take the Chinese market as an example, there is no single stretch of road in the entire nation on which one can do a full throttle quarter mile, because there are speed cameras in every corner. But people want cars with big "displacement number" (S550, 750Li, A8 50TFSI). Here even Corollas and Civics have that three digit number for people to show off. When an entry level ES (200) has a smaller number than a Civic (220), there is a problem. Bigger numbers make things sell. It's not like people really need a 20 mega pixel camera in their phones, but they buy them anyway.

And to be fair Lexus was the one who started this acceleration/power arms race. People didn't believe a practical FWD car could handle more than 250hp until Lexus did the ES350. The GS400/430/460 gave Lexus the bragging right of having the fastest four door sedan for almost a decade.

So by this logic, Lexus is covered with LS "500"...? 740i, 750i, S400, S560, LS 500... sounds "fair" to me.

 

[mmcartalk]

And to be fair Lexus was the one who started this acceleration/power arms race. People didn't believe a practical FWD car could handle more than 250hp until Lexus did the ES350. The GS400/430/460 gave Lexus the bragging right of having the fastest four door sedan for almost a decade.

With FWD, HP is not a much of an issue as torque. Torque, especially with unequal-length half-shafts, is what actually tugs at the steering wheel on hard acceleration, not HP. More HP generally means more torque, but not always...several different factors in the engine come into play.

People buy luxury vehicles as a symbol of social status. The acceleration figures may not matter, but that three digit "power equivalence rating" is very relevant.

Among luxury cars, Rolls-Royce probably had it right, when, for many years, their official HP and torque ratings simply stated "Adequate".

 

[ssun30]

With FWD, HP is not a much of an issue as torque. Torque, especially with unequal-length half-shafts, is what actually tugs at the steering wheel on hard acceleration, not HP. More HP generally means more torque, but not always...several different factors in the engine come into play.

That is simply untrue. Torque does not matter at all once power is transmitted through the transmission; it is one of the most misunderstood fact about automobile on the Internet. A high rpm, low torque engine will have exactly the same effect on torque steer as a low rpm, high torque engine under hard acceleration, as long as they have the same exact peak power and transmission profile. Torque steer is caused by uneven traction, not engine torque. And it's not torque that accelerates the car; it's power, period. There are lots of professionals who interchange the two terms, because they gave up on lecturng the general public and just use whichever is more convenient instead.

The correct form of your statement is that turbocharged engines are likely more prone to torque steer than naturally aspirated engines, because they have more low end torque, hence more power at normal driving rpms. This is also why turbocharged engines "pull harder" than NA engines in daily driving.

 

[DFGeneer]

And it's not torque that accelerates the car; it's power, period.

Hm, sorry my friend, but you are wrong here.
F=m*a, remember?
So, acceleration of the car is proportional to the force it gets from the torque at the driving wheels.
Now, torque at the wheels is related to the engine/transmission gear combo rather than the engine torque alone, but still, it is the torque that does the job, not power.

 

[Madi]

And here the catalog of LS 500 & LS 500h, surprisingly there are another colors for the interior other than what we know so far, the most obvious is the Red for F SPORT trim :

 

[mikeavelli]

And here the catalog of LS 500 & LS 500h, surprisingly there are another colors for the interior other than what we know so far, the most obvious is the Red for F SPORT trim :

Yes, Rioja red... and there is one in the states with it... Good catch!

I love the new carbon fiber clock detail on the F-Sport

 

[mikeavelli]

 

[zeusus]

Yes, Rioja red... and there is one in the states with it... Good catch!

I love the new carbon fiber clock detail on the F-Sport

View attachment 2490

I think that looks more like the GSF's circuit red interior than the Rioja Red found in the LC500.

 

[ssun30]

Hm, sorry my friend, but you are wrong here.
F=m*a, remember?
So, acceleration of the car is proportional to the force it gets from the torque at the driving wheels.
Now, torque at the wheels is related to the engine/transmission gear combo rather than the engine torque alone, but still, it is the torque that does the job, not power.

As you've correctly pointed out the "F" in the "F=m*a" you just quoted is the traction at the driving wheels. And you've also correctly pointed out that the torque at the wheels is not the same as engine torque, because engine torque does not matter once power is transmitted through the transmission.

A quick thought experiment: let's say we have a big engine that has 400 Nm of torque at 3000rpm and a small engine that has 200 Nm of torque at 6000rpm, so both of them have a peak power of 125 kW. Now we gear the transmission such that both cars (also assuming same weight) reach 60mph at their peak torque output. Such a setup will ensure both cars accelerate to 60mph at the same time. Why? Because remember KE=1/2*m*v^2, and t=KE/P. Both cars will hit the same kinetic energy, while having the same amount of power, so it will take the same amount of time for the two engines to impart the kinetic energy onto the cars. You can apply the same simulation to a tank engine with 2000 Nm of torque at 600rpm or a go-kart engine with 100 Nm of torque at 12000rpm. The acceleration figure will not change, because the power is the same.

Now in real world we can't assume all engines have similar torque curve. The aforementioned "big engine" will generally perform better at normal driving rpms (1500-2500) so a driver gets that power very easily, while the "small engine" will require regular downshifting to, say, pass a car on the highway. That's why people say they "feel the torque" when they press down the gas pedal on a powerful car. But it's not because their engine has more torque, but because their engine has more power at the rpm they are requesting. Modern turbocharged cars have high low-end torque so they can be more efficient; it is a good solution to have both efficiency and power. The similar can be done through continuous variable valve lift on NA engines.

But our conversation was about driving the car near its peak power output, i.e. full throttle acceleration. That's when torque steer really becomes apparent. You wouldn't feel torque steer at all during normal driving.

The only correct way to determine a car's acceleration is to give the customer the full torque curve and the transmission ratios, as well as the dynamic weight distribution and tire grip. But it's unnecessarily complex. If I need a rough estimate, I only need to know the Power-to-Weight ratio. Do yourself a favor and calculate the power-to-weight ratio values of Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/Audi vehicles and plot them against the 0-60 figures, you will see a good correlation there. But try doing that with the torque-to-weight ratio and nothing will come out of it.