5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread

[Rhambler]

The LS 500 is just missing a decent engine. One that pushes out 450-500 HP in a non-F guise.

I personally believe this V6 will be so overrated by Toyota that it will be kind of slow in real-world, third-party testing.

Toyota just recently did a 100% in house designed engine, a turbo engine that performs very poorly. It's not a dynamic force, but it was just put in use a few years ago and the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. It looks good on paper, but performs badly. I think this engine will be the same. It's another reason why Yamaha use to figure so prominently in Toyota engine design imo. Look what happened when they went it alone very recently.

We shall see.

In this day and age, when SUVs are taking center stage, the only thing cars can offer is power, speed and performance.

http://www.carbuzz.com/m/Article.aspx?Id=40026

 

[Gecko]

The LS 500 is just missing a decent engine. One that pushes out 450-500 HP in a non-F guise.

I personally believe this V6 will be so overrated by Toyota that it will be kind of slow in real-world, third-party testing.

Toyota just recently did a 100% in house designed engine, a turbo engine that performs very poorly. It's not a dynamic force, but it was just put in use a few years ago and the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. It looks good on paper, but performs badly. I think this engine will be the same. It's another reason why Yamaha use to figure so prominently in Toyota engine design imo. Look what happened when they went it alone very recently.

We shall see.

In this day and age, when SUVs are taking center stage, the only thing cars can offer is power, speed and performance.

http://www.carbuzz.com/m/Article.aspx?Id=40026

I know this issue has been beaten to death here but I have a feeling that the 3.5L TTV6 is actually going to be quite strong.... probably stronger than any Lexus engine in recent memory, aside from maybe the V10 in the LFA. 2UR-GSE is a great engine but too high revving for this type of application.

Lexus powerplants have been torque deficient for more than a decade, which has resulted in cars that feel slower off the line than their turbocharged competitors. The numbers prove that is true, and I feel like the bar has been set pretty low because of this (for better or worse).

As you note, the 8AR-FTS was a "meh" effort as Lexus' first stab at turbocharging, so I can only hope they learned from their mistakes and are prepared to deliver going forward. Of note, that 2.0T is NOT part of the new Dynamic Force engine family, which the V35A-FTS is the first V6 production. I have hope.

The LS is and always has been Lexus #1 priority, so when they say that the new engine surpasses the existing V8 in terms of NVH, smoothness and power, I will believe it until I'm proven otherwise. The new car is also more than 200lbs lighter than the current one, has 75 more lb-ft of torque and a more sophisticated transmission. I think Lexus claimed 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds is very realistic based on what we know so far.

Toyota has the know-how to build first-rate turbocharged performance engines... they just haven't done it in a while. And speaking of, from what I hear, this engine is headed for the Supra so I don't think they'll be overstating capabilities for an engine that is going into their most iconic performance model.

 

[Rhambler]

Well Lexus is already on record stating this engine will propel this car to 60 in 4.5 seconds.

That's why I linked that Carbuzz article as real world testers always seem to get less than what Toyota says versus other automakers. Like the current LS 460. Toyota says 5.4 seconds. Hogwash. 6 seconds.

I bet we'll see legitimate values above 5 seconds for the new LS.

 

[ssun30]

Actually almost all modern German V8 tts are "hot Vs."

BMW 4.4 V8 tt is a hot V
Mercedes 4.0 V8 tt is a hot V
Porsche 4.0 V8 tt is a hot V
Likewise for Audi

The point I was making is that Lexus CANNOT easily make single turbo V8 or V6 (as someone mentioned) because Lexus places the turbos in traditional locations, on the periphery of the engine. It just won't work. You can do this in a hot V.

I know there is no V in a straight six. German V6s are hots Vs too, at least those that make Vs

Yes my post was meant to reinforce your point that Lexus won't build a single turbo V6 because it's unnecessarily complex. I wasn't mentioning V8s though, just six cylinder engines. I've not seen a Mercedes with a hot V6 because the current model is 60 degree, and uses a traditional bi-turbo configuration. Maybe point me to some resources?

The LS 500 is just missing a decent engine. One that pushes out 450-500 HP in a non-F guise

The engine line-up for 5LS is completely baffling to me. I live in China and a friend of mine who works at a Lexus dealership said he was deeply disappointed by the poor engine choices. It's almost like Lexus has given up on the biggest market for premium and luxury vehicles.

In China we have this ridiculous "displacement tax" that has led to Lexus' downfall in this market, simply because their workhorse 2GR is a 3.5L engine. Under the latest version of the legislation:
The tax rate is 8% for a car with a 2.0L-2.5L engine;
12% for 2.5L-3.0L;
25% for 3.0L-4.0L;
40% for 4.0L+.

All the German competitors are in the 12% bracket, allowing them to undercut Lexus in price by a wide margin. Lexus basically had to axe its two cash cows: the ES350 and the RX350. IS350 and GS350 are gone as well. 2GR is completely replaced by 8AR, which is poorly received since it's a half-assed effort. No V6 no sales, it's just as simple as that.

The engine TMC needs RIGHT NOW is a proper 2GR replacement: a simple and efficient 3.0L bi-turbo V6. The best selling executive sedan in China all use this same recipe: S400L, 740Li, A8L 50TFSI, and Jaguar XF 3.0. The new LS350 is underpowered and in a higher tax bracket than all these competitors. It's basically DOA. And don't forget it's not just about Lexus. The Highlander needs it, the Alphard needs it, the Prado needs it, the Crown needs it. Unless TMC is content with selling just Corollas in China it needs to develop this engine ASAP.

And the LS500 uses the non-sense 3.5L V6 which will be a major disappointment for returning customers who used to have the wonderful 4.6L V8. Why give up V8 when the new "downsized" V6 is actually in the same exact tax bracket which nullifies the benefit of downsizing? Again the LS500 will be underpowered competing against Germans with V8s.

 

[Rhambler]

That's why I think this car will be a sales flop. There's not many people that buy this class of car to begin with and when you're spending this much, why compromise?

This is going to be underpowered and overpriced.

The only way this thing moves off of lots is if Lexus undercuts the G90 price wise. Kind of sad I even have to say that, but that's a hard truth because it doesn't offer anything worthy of its reported price tag.

If I'm spending this much (Lexus will probably price this like the A8 V8 or 750i), I want it all. Not some puddly V6.

 

[Gecko]

Well Lexus is already on record stating this engine will propel this car to 60 in 4.5 seconds.

That's why I linked that Carbuzz article as real world testers always seem to get less than what Toyota says versus other automakers. Like the current LS 460. Toyota says 5.4 seconds. Hogwash. 6 seconds.

I bet we'll see legitimate values above 5 seconds for the new LS.

Almost every model with the GR V6 has been understated by Toyota - Camry has done 0-60 in less than 6 seconds. Highlander is very quick, as is the Avalon. Tundra 5.7L 0-60 has been timed at 6 seconds flat. Lexus actually revised the 2nd gen IS 350's acceleration number because they overstated it (5.6 originally) and the car was doing 5.2-5.3 seconds (I believe Lexus revised it to 5.4). The list goes on.

I see your point about the LS but I don't think Toyota "always seems to get less" by any stretch.

 

[Rhambler]

I base it on manufacturer's claimed times versus what third parties can actually achieve. Third parties such as established car journalists etc.

The Germans tend to understate and Toyota tends to overstate. In fact they seem to be the most egregious imo in claimed versus real across the board.

Yes I say this anecdotally, but just look at what C&D pulled on the recent Camry: 7.8 seconds. Yeah, it's a hybrid, but still that's minivan speed.

Edit: now in curious what Toyota will claim lol.

 

[Gecko]

And the LS500 uses the non-sense 3.5L V6 which will be a major disappointment for returning customers who used to have the wonderful 4.6L V8. Why give up V8 when the new "downsized" V6 is actually in the same exact tax bracket which nullifies the benefit of downsizing? Again the LS500 will be underpowered competing against Germans with V8s.

I agree with many of your other points, but when is the last time you drove an LS 460? Torque is what makes a car feel fast and the 1UR-FSE lacks it - period. The UR V8 is smooth for sure, but I don't think anyone is going to get into an LS 500 from an LS 460 and be disappointed. If anything, the LS 500 will feel significantly faster around town because of the torque advantage.

If you compare power to weight ratios, the S560, 750i and LS 500 are within a half a pound per HP of each other. I believe these cars will all be very competitive with each other, with the "winner" probably coming down to things like transmission, throttle response and driver.

 

[Gecko]

I base it on manufacturer's claimed times versus what third parties can actually achieve. Third parties such as established car journalists etc.

The Germans tend to understate and Toyota tends to overstate. In fact they seem to be the most egregious imo in claimed versus real across the board.

Yes I say this anecdotally, but just look at what C&D pulled on the recent Camry: 7.8 seconds. Yeah, it's a hybrid, but still that's minivan speed.

Edit: now in curious what Toyota will claim lol.

Anyone can cherry pick good and bad stats to tell their own story. I don't disagree with you that the LS is more of a 6 second car, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Toyota has a tendency to overrate their cars in general because that is simply not true.

 

[Gecko]

The only way this thing moves off of lots is if Lexus undercuts the G90 price wise. Kind of sad I even have to say that, but that's a hard truth because it doesn't offer anything worthy of its reported price tag.

 

[bogglo]

Yes my post was meant to reinforce your point that Lexus won't build a single turbo V6 because it's unnecessarily complex. I wasn't mentioning V8s though, just six cylinder engines. I've not seen a Mercedes with a hot V6 because the current model is 60 degree, and uses a traditional bi-turbo configuration. Maybe point me to some resources?



The engine line-up for 5LS is completely baffling to me. I live in China and a friend of mine who works at a Lexus dealership said he was deeply disappointed by the poor engine choices. It's almost like Lexus has given up on the biggest market for premium and luxury vehicles.

In China we have this ridiculous "displacement tax" that has led to Lexus' downfall in this market, simply because their workhorse 2GR is a 3.5L engine. Under the latest version of the legislation:
The tax rate is 8% for a car with a 2.0L-2.5L engine;
12% for 2.5L-3.0L;
25% for 3.0L-4.0L;
40% for 4.0L+.

All the German competitors are in the 12% bracket, allowing them to undercut Lexus in price by a wide margin. Lexus basically had to axe its two cash cows: the ES350 and the RX350. IS350 and GS350 are gone as well. 2GR is completely replaced by 8AR, which is poorly received since it's a half-assed effort. No V6 no sales, it's just as simple as that.

The engine TMC needs RIGHT NOW is a proper 2GR replacement: a simple and efficient 3.0L bi-turbo V6. The best selling executive sedan in China all use this same recipe: S400L, 740Li, A8L 50TFSI, and Jaguar XF 3.0. The new LS350 is underpowered and in a higher tax bracket than all these competitors. It's basically DOA. And don't forget it's not just about Lexus. The Highlander needs it, the Alphard needs it, the Prado needs it, the Crown needs it. Unless TMC is content with selling just Corollas in China it needs to develop this engine ASAP.

And the LS500 uses the non-sense 3.5L V6 which will be a major disappointment for returning customers who used to have the wonderful 4.6L V8. Why give up V8 when the new "downsized" V6 is actually in the same exact tax bracket which nullifies the benefit of downsizing? Again the LS500 will be underpowered competing against Germans with V8s.

All great point. But IMO , I won't conclude that Lexus is done with the LS as far as engine choice is concerned(a good example was the lunch of the LS350. I did not see that coming.). Also when you talk about tax bracket are you saying both the 3.5L NA engine and the 3.5LTT engine are in the same tax bracket(TMC is not a novice in this business and am sure they are familiar with the Tax Bracket Issue. I can see history repeating itself remember 2006 GS300 AND 2007 GS350)? Also we know how secretive TMC can get when they choose to.(For example does anyone have a concrete information of what the FT-1 mule running around would be called, or what engine it would have. does anyone know what engine would replace the IS350, RC350 and the GS350 engine.)

 

[bogglo]

2006 Lexus GS300(V6 3.0L)------2007 Lexus GS350(3.5L) same thing happened with the GS430 and GS460.
2018 Lexus LS350 (V6 3.5L)-------2019 Lexus LSxxx(V6 3.0L)

Also makes a lot of sense if the next IS350 RC350 and GS350 gets a 3.0LTT(just saying) and they are all due for a refresh in 2019/2020. why not put the same 3.0LTT engine in the LS 350 at least they all share the same engine in 2018 so why can't they do the same in 2019?

(This is just my way of viewing things and keeping the hope alive. cheers!!)

 

[mikeavelli]

That's why I think this car will be a sales flop. There's not many people that buy this class of car to begin with and when you're spending this much, why compromise?

This is going to be underpowered and overpriced.

The only way this thing moves off of lots is if Lexus undercuts the G90 price wise. Kind of sad I even have to say that, but that's a hard truth because it doesn't offer anything worthy of its reported price tag.

If I'm spending this much (Lexus will probably price this like the A8 V8 or 750i), I want it all. Not some puddly V6.

We don't know the price but since Benz is introducing a V-6 with 350hp and the base A8 V-6 has about 333hp and the 740i I-6 has 320hp, well the Lexus V-6 clearly out muscles them. Obviously Lexus doesn't even offer a V-8 yet in the LS.

"Wanting it all" sounds good on the internet but in the real world that rarely happens. Most are bought by people that want this size/class of car with some features. Most are silver/black/white. Many are for fleet and business. The badge is what matters to many which is why the Germans can sell 6 cylinders for the price of a 8 cylinder LS (pre 2018). There are some that cross shop but its not a bunch of people, people usually want what they want and they kind of already know what brand appeals to them.

Wanting it all? I've built this entire class many times, you can jump from 80k to 110k in a 740iL. You can jump from a 120k S8 to 160k. Most are not going to make a 30-40k jump like that. Most will do 10k in options.

With the LS and its very aggressive styling for its class, its aiming not for people that particularly care about the numbers and less so the badge. They do want to be seen, they want to make a statement, they do not want to blend in. The LS has this in spades.

So what the LS loses maybe in some spec ares, it wins in styling for people that want it. Surely many traditional LS buyers will dislike the styling and can move to a German or the Kia/Hyundai versions of the LS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

In this day and age, when SUVs are taking center stage, the only thing cars can offer is power, speed and performance.

I don't know what experience you have as a buyer/driver in this class, but basically nobody buys an $80k+ flagship sedan to go stoplight drag racing. That would be seen as uncouth, and you'd lose your Grey Poupon permit.

 

[Rhambler]

Well then why does the Mercedes S, BMW 750 and Audi A8 can legitamitely rocket to 60 in under 4.5 seconds? Heck the S8 can reach that slightly over 3 seconds.

Someone is buying these cars.

It's an amazing experience being able to rocket off that quickly in such a large car. That is part of the $100k experience imo.

Heck, even Bentley, Rolls and other luxury yachts are designing in rocket speeds, just because those buyers expect it even if they may never use it.

That "everything" I was mentioning is just a decent engine, something the new LS lacks.

You know what type of customer doesn't care? Old people. Right up Lexus' alley...

 

[Ian Schmidt]

They do it because in Germany you used to be able to use nearly 1/4th of that capability on the Autobahn and it was a fun domestic dork-waving contest for all involved. In the rest of the world, that largely didn't happen; smoothness/luxury, design, and tech won out. Cadillac was still the "Standard of the World" at a time when you could easily buy about 8 other GM models that would smoke it 0-60 for a lot cheaper.

Nowadays if blistering 0-60 times are a major thing for you, you buy a Tesla. Even the Model 3 will probably be fast enough off the line in the best configurations to brutally murder the AMG and M flagships. So it's pointless for ICE manufacturers to try and compete with it; it'll just lead to more YouTube videos featuring crudely-drawn weeping 3-pointed stars. Given that environment, Lexus has threaded the needle and done the smart thing: the TTV6 beats the Germans' base configurations handily, but it's not so insane that it endangers smoothness and reliability.

 

[Rhambler]

Well that remains to be seen whether that engine can beat the other V6s. Like I said, Toyota overstates, the German understates. We shall see soon enough I'm sure.

Tesla is definitely eating away at this segment from a price-point perspective and that ludicrous mode definitely helps. However, the Germans have seemingly fended off a sales decline more so than Lexus simply because, imo, they are relatively fast or faster.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

However, the Germans have seemingly fended off a sales decline more so than Lexus simply because, imo, they are relatively fast or faster.

They've fended it off because the top 5% in the US run on pure status power. BMW and Mercedes have it, Audi and Lexus don't.

 

[Gecko]

Tesla is definitely eating away at this segment from a price-point perspective and that ludicrous mode definitely helps. However, the Germans have seemingly fended off a sales decline more so than Lexus simply because, imo, they are relatively fast or faster.

If you think anyone is buying flagship luxury sedans solely because of a few tenths of a second 0-60, you don't understand anything about this segment.

The LS is 11 years old and the S Class and 7 Series have seen 2 full generations since it was introduced.

 

[bogglo]

I love cars that I can push to their limit . Not a car for bragging right.