5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread

[krew]

If I need to drive like that, I will just buy the LC500 Or the LC F when it comes out.

Once again, just my opinions and impressions on the LS500 F Sport.

This was great! Let me know when you get your LS, you should write a front-page review.

 

[Gecko]

Actually......

http://driving.ca/cadillac/ct6/auto...anning-to-bring-escala-flagship-to-production

^Most likely as 2nd gen CT6, from what I've read. By that time, CT5 will be fully in-market and allow the CT6 to move up a few pegs - and the first gen CT6 will be at the end of it's lifecycle. Cadillac has already stated that they are combining the ATS and CTS into one sedan, the CT5. I do not foresee them positioning another sedan above the CT6 in a market that has rapidly falling demand for passenger cars. This is an easy solve for Caddy with timing, product positioning and a market that's soft on passenger cars.

It would make more sense to invest in XT4, revamped XT5, and a three row crossover based on the CT6... XT6? XT7? Probably also a two-row performance CUV like LF-1.

 

[RichieRich]

This was great! Let me know when you get your LS, you should write a front-page review.

Funny you say that. My salesperson just emailed me this morning and said my car arrived in Jacksonville and should be at the dealership in a few days.

 

[mikeavelli]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/05/lexus-got-hoped-new-ls-least-now/

So far LS sales on target. I expect them to pick up going forward into 2019.

 

[Rob Grieveson]

Photos can give a different impression from what we actually see! Crazy but true many of the photos are taken from a low stance but when one sees a car on the road you are looking at eye level which is usually a higher stance and when viewing a stationery vehicle you are looking slightly down onto the car. Some critics here are harsh and possibly will change their view once they see this car on the road. I think it is dramatic and an eye catching design and I too have changed my opinion fron my first viewing. This car will do well for Lexus.

 

[maiaramdan]

The LS & LC will still have there first summer, so sales will start to pick up again

 

[Mk4UmHa]

It looks like you can't get the Executive Package with the Active Stabilizers, the 08-12 600hL's came with them standard

 

[Gecko]

Thanks to @Brooks2IS, I finally had a chance to get some seat time in the new LS last night. The car was obsidian on parchment leather with the artwood organic trim. At this point, I won't go on and on since we've all read the reviews, but I'll provide my opinions:

Exterior:
- I've seen 3-4 new LSs on the road already, but getting a chance to be up close and personal with the car reinforced how much I love the design. This is such a handsome, sophisticated and elegant car - from every angle. It really looks like something special at every glance. It's big in person - very big - but beautiful and looks very much like a flagship car. I would say that I prefer the exterior of this car to the S Class. The grille and front end are my favorite part by far.

Interior:
- Interior is similarly beautiful, but what was interesting to me is how much this car didn't really feel like an LS from the driver's seat. The dash, console, seats and doors are beautiful and the build quality is second to nothing. It's flawless. However, the small three-spoke steering wheel and compact gauge cluster, combined with how the dash and doors wrap around you, makes it feel very different from any LS before. Previous generations had lots of space and a sense of opulence that was quite simple - it was there, it was big, it was loud and it was proud. This car just feels very different, much more like an ultra-lux version of an IS or GS than a car that claims LS lineage. I don't necessarily like it or dislike it, but it's just different.
- I played with Remote Touch a bit and don't see it being the embodiment of satan like the media would lead you to believe.
- Massaging seats and Mark Levinson audio are both incredible.
- You can feel that there is less headroom in this car than before. I am 6' - 6'1" and to get comfortable in the driver's seat with the HUD adjusted at the right angle was not particularly easy. However, I think I got it to a workable point and was pretty comfortable overall.
- There has been some discussion about the back seat and I have heard that some dealers are unhappy about it because consumers find it smaller than the LS 460L. I definitely understand the frustration now. You can sit back there and you can definitely get comfortable, but the roofline seriously cuts into headroom and it's just not as large or spacious as it was before. There would definitely be room for Lexus to do a "L" version of this car that adds ~6-8" of rear legroom.
- The hologram screen on the passenger side of the dash is absolutely awful and I cannot believe this was approved for production. It looks like the etched glass they use to separate booths in all-you-can-eat Chinese buffets. This is my #1 nitpick on the interior. Can this just be wood trim with some nice LED back lighting?

Drive:
- Regardless of what any reviews have said, I was so excited to drive this car and experience the TT V6 for myself. As much as I loved the exterior and interior, I couldn't wait to get the car out on the road.
- Leaving my neighborhood and going less than 30mph, you can immediately feel that this car does not have a V8. To Lexus' credit, I don't think I have seen them make claims that the V6 is as smooth as a V8, but I have seen them mention that this engine is comparable to competitor's V8s. More on that later. Even if you're idling or just barely pressing the pedal, you can feel that the car lacks the depth and smoothness of a V8. Even with that said, I was excited to get it out on regular roads to see if the tradeoff was worth it.
- Unfortunately, it isn't. I drove the car on city streets and the highway for about 30-40 minutes to get a solid feel for it, and I also used each of the drive modes as well. Sport and Sport+ were my least favorite - the transmission feels like it's trying too hard to pick the right gear, there's more hesitation, and the extra sound piped into the cabin just sounds like a raspy V6. I have a lot of seat time in a 3IS 350 F Sport and would say it sounds very similar. If you didn't know the car was lacking a V8 before, you definitely would once you put it into sport mode. Normal was actually my favorite drive mode - it seems to do a better job of picking and holding gears while filtering out some of the not-so-flattering V6 engine noise.
- I made this point to start off with, but I really wanted to love this engine because I love the rest of the car. However, I do not. When you mash the throttle, there is a half second delay between input and reaction, then about a 1 second delay due to turbo lag, and then the engine builds power very linearly. The power delivery after the turbos have spooled up is very similar to a naturally aspirated engine and you don't get any sense of there being dead spots in the RPM range, but it is fairly weak on the bottom end.
- The power delivery combined with the weight of this car does not make it feel particularly fast around town. In fact, I would say that the engine is adequate but not going to impress anyone who is cross shopping with a S560, 750i, Panamera, etc. If you have driven an IS or GS 350, the overall sense of acceleration and noise are very similar in this LS... perhaps not shocking as all three of them are 0-60 in the mid-5 second range.
- I will say that at the top end, this engine absolutely wails. It seems like you can go 65 or 70mph up to 100 in the blink of an eye... the LS 500 is much faster than the LS 460 on the top end, but it does feel more sluggish and less refined in stop and go traffic, or when you're asking for quick acceleration under 60MPH.
- I don't know if the culprit is the engine, the transmission or the weight of the car, but the powertrain overall feels pretty flat and character-less. It never feels as torquey as the 442lb-ft would have you expect, and the 10AT seems to bang through gears so quickly that you never really feel like you have any consistent sensation of being in the power band. As noted above, it does HAUL at the top end - but it sounds like a raspy V6 in the process.
- The real disappointment with the engine is how good the chassis is. This car has a solidarity, confidence and rigidity that is unlike any LS before... you can feel that the car is looking for curves and opportunities to be driven hard, which is not a characteristic of any LS before, IMO. It's balanced, poised feels extremely capable - while also being very smooth and solid. Handling is great - it's confident and makes the car feel much smaller than it really is. Similar to how the acceleration feels similar to a bigger IS or GS, it drives much the same way - athletic, capable, good feedback, playful and confident. What a great car to drive!

Tech:
- I was shocked at how great LSS was, and how easy to use and unobtrusive the system feels. It was raining and I was going 70-80mph on the highway and the car confidently maintains it's position in the lane, automatically brakes, corrects your steering, etc. in a way that feels natural and never overbearing. Really impressed here.
- To the point above, it was raining pretty good - not POURING, but raining hard - and the automatic wipers could not work fast enough. I overrode them and tried to use the manual setting, and that did not work either. This is a serious problem, IMO. The wipers were on their fastest setting and leaving plenty of water on the windshield that was making it difficult to see the road ahead.


Overall:

Walking away and thinking about it overnight, my overwhelming opinion is that this car doesn't feel like a Lexus LS. Depending on what you like, that could be good or bad. There are many things I love: it looks great, the interior is absolutely beautiful, the chassis is rock solid and feels incredibly capable. But with all of that said, there is something "LS" that is missing from the experience.

On one hand, it has a sophisticated, dramatic design that shifts the image of the car, and it has the chassis and handling that dynamically elevate "LS" beyond anything it ever was before. On the other hand, there is something about this car that feels less special, less bespoke, and less "flagship" than any LS before it. I kept coming back to the fact that it feels like a big, ultra luxury GS or IS instead of an LS. There was a time when the LS felt wholly different than the GS or IS - more solid, more opulent, more blatantly luxurious, and it delivered an overall driving experience that felt elevated from the rest of the lineup. I think a big part of that was generations of solid, buttery smooth and effortless V8s under the hood. The LS 500 drives and generally feels similar to both the IS 350 and GS 350, and I think the reason is the TT V6 dropped into a confident and athletic chassis. On paper, it packs the right amount of power but in execution, it lacks the smoothness, character and solidarity that 8 cylinders brings to a car like this. In addition, the interior just feels so different from anything we've seen before: the small steering wheel, lack of a full wood rim wheel, compact gauge cluster and cheap hologram on the passenger side seem.... not like an LS. Is it bad? No - it's really not. It's just such a dramatic shift from the LS formula we always had before.

I feel like this car is what the GS should have become - a four door coupe that slots under the LS. The tight roofline and overall interior feel make sense for a car like that, as does the lack of a V8. The dash and sporty cockpit/steering wheel would be great for a GS, but they seem sort of out of place in an LS. I thought Lexus was smart to avoid the four door coupe trend and just try to style their sedans with more aggressive lines and greenhouses, but I'm now not so sure that strategy worked. I believe there would be a place for an ES, a four door coupe GS, and an LS that is slightly different from this LS 500 - more upright, more luxurious, and more powerful.

At launch, I thought the 3.5L TT V6 would be the perfect engine for this car, based solely on the high torque figure. I was convinced the 5.0L V8 would not be the right engine for this LS 500 because it makes less than 400lb-ft of torque, but I was completely wrong. I think the 2UR-GSE would have actually been the perfect engine for this platform - a powertrain that made sense with the rest of the car. That V8 has so much more character, a perfectly linear power delivery and a ton of power on the top end - these things make more sense in a car with such a wonderful chassis, and a presence that is so radical. This TT V6 should have been offered as "LS 400" and the V8 should have been offered as "LS 500," IMO. This TT V6 in no way feels like a replacement for a V8 - it feels like an entry level engine option, or one that would be great in the IS and GS.

On one side, it feels like the car has the looks, chassis and interior to seriously challenge cars like the Panamera and XJ, but the powertrain completely lacks the performance or personality to make the LS a real competitor to either one. On the other side, the LS feels less opulent and less special than the S Class, primarily from the cabin and when driving it on the road. It seems to me that the LS has slid into "no mans land" along with the 7 Series and A8... a group of cars that don't know if they're trying to be sporty or luxurious, and do neither very well. At least it's pretty.

 

[RAL]

Thank you @Gecko for a thoughtful and thorough review! As I read your opinions, I appreciated the way you put words to some of my impressions I hadn't consciously worked out. I think you nailed it in that this car gives one the feeling of what a new GS should be. While the car is remarkable in so many ways, I agree it lacks that flagship 'presence' in regard to interior space and powertrain. Maybe Lexus' strategy all along has been to combine the qualities of a GS and an LS into just one vehicle ... hmmmm ... Such a long wait for a new LS generated such a high level of expectations. We had every right to expect everything LS and more ... certainly not less in regard to flagship space and grace.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

That's a great writeup, but of course I have opinions

- To me the difference in the interior isn't so much that it's not high-end luxury as that it's 2018 high-end luxury, which is more personal. Each of the driver and 3 passengers gets to do their own thing, especially with the Luxury Package. (The fact that this is what the Chinese market is looking for doesn't escape me). Also, a 460-sized wheel would make it a lot harder to find a comfortable seating position.
- Your picture really showed off the subtle lighting behind the door handles, which is one of the things I really love about this car, particularly at night.
- Maybe it's just that my car's adjusted itself around me, but a month+ later I don't feel any of the hesitation or anything you talk about. It goes a lot when I stomp it, and I now consider the LS460 gutless by comparison. I will agree there was some of the old 460 stomp-and-wait in the first week or two.
- Sport and Sport + modes are garbage - the extra performance isn't worth how much harsher the ride gets. Normal is fine, but I actually leave it in Eco/Comfort a lot because it gives more of the classic LS feel.
- I don't mind the headroom or rear legroom once you're in it (and with the Luxury package at least the rear seats actually move back to facilitate easier entry/exit) but the door cutouts were not designed for large Americans. I feel like that's actually more of a problem than the actual headroom/legroom.

 

[Rhambler]

When I had my LS460, I had a plan, lease the 460 for three years (it was a 2016) then buy the second-year model LS500 and keep it for a long time.

I'll be very honest, when they said it only had a V6, my plans changed immediately. Yes, I cried and moaned about it on the CL forums, but oh well. However, there's a silver lining of course, serendipity in fact, as I wouldn't be driving what I'm driving now had it not been for Lexus' decision and the S7 is the best car I've ever owned or driven.

When I test drove the 460, I knew it felt slow off the bat, but I digress, I also knew it was approaching the end of its life cycle and I just could not imagine Lexus NOT shoving in some huge V8 considering, at the time, the competition was pushing close to 450 HP and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds for their V8s. I thought to myself, hey, I'll drive this for a while, then get a good deal on my more permanent car, a brand-new LS500 with some huge V8. Not. This is also why I got out of my lease two years early and actively shopped around.

I personally didn't mind the shape of it, more than the fact that it just doesn't have the heart that I wanted.

 

[zeusus]

We've only seen two iterations thus far, perhaps Lexus thought that anybody who was adamant about the v8 could pay extra for the F.

LS500 TTv6
LS500 Hybrid
LS+ hyrdrogen - we've already seen the concept and intent to produce
LS-F turbo v8 - rumors swirling

 

[Levi]

It makes sense to have V8 as F. At the end M, AMG and RS means power. The M5 is not more costly than the M550i, BMW just makes a good margin on it. There is really not much sense to get an M550i over an M5, other than money, which should not be a factor at these price levels. As Lexus does not sell as much as the Germans, it can make sense to skip the intermediate versions and ask less than Germans for top versions. Anyway, today what M AMG and RS are is all about numbers. With adaptive suspension they can be as comfortable as sporty, anyway they are all heavy cars filled with loads of tech, so nothing like the original cars.

 

[ssun30]

I guess one thing many will agree is that if 5LS didn't slip by two years, which also means it will probably carry the 2UR engine at launch, it would have been a more likeable car. And it would be much more impressive in 2015 than being launched in 2017.

As Lexus supporters we will one day stop worrying about making safe financial decisions, keeping business healthy, or just doing fully responsible things in general. At that point we should all reward ourselves with some hand-folded cloth and kiriko glass. It can be just a little bit more rewarding if that is served with a 1GZ V12. I will gladly take batteries and motors too.

 

[Rhambler]

This is worthy of the GS/F/Engine thread, but I'll post it here as it is directly applicable to me.

Cadillac, of all companies, wouldn't have dedicated resources to this engine had they not seen a market for it. The CT6 is kind of like the LS500, it's a tweener in my eyes, kind of sitting in between the S and E classes, and I think Cadillac knew that with their 400 HP V6 engine (like Lexus). The image wasn't there and neither was the performance. The cachet was non-existent.

I liken this more towards the M550i versus full-blown M5, but regardless, this engine is impressive and I would consider this before the LS500 every day of the week. I will test drive this when it comes out as I'm curious. I can live with the crappy CUE system if I have 550 HP sitting beneath the hood.

Also, unlike Lexus and their fanciful pricing scheme, I bet this thing doesn't breach $100k.

Cadillac, like the Germans, saw the market. They see the market. They must have because this engine was probably being developed years ago. Lexus, missed the market. They didn't see anything.

Also notice the non-sport model, or standard model with a de-tuned 500 HP version. That’s nice.


https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...ort-550-hp-twin-turbo-v8-and-all-wheel-drive/

Cadillac CT6 V-Sport: 550-HP Twin-Turbo V8 and All-Wheel Drive

Cadillac revamps the big-luxury CT6 with Escala-inspired styling and a brand-new twin-turbo engine making an astounding 627 lb-ft of torque.

BY NATE PETROELJE
MAR 21, 2018
7.3K

CADILLAC
Cadillac just gave the CT6 an aesthetic refresh that greatly echoes the styling of the dramatic Escala concept car. And even better: There's a new high-performance CT6 V-Sport, with an all-new twin-turbo V8 kicking out 550 horsepower.

The CT6 V-Sport, shown here, will hit the market in the first half of 2019. The CT6, you'll recall, is the longest and most luxurious of Caddy’s sedan lineup, above the CTS, ATS, and soon-to-be-terminated XTS. It’s Cadillac’s answer to the German onslaught of luxury sedans, going toe-to-toe with 5-Series and 7-Series, E- and S-Class, and A6 and A8.

CADILLAC
The V-Sport trim isn’t new; the CTS and XTS have had V-Sport variants for a few years now. It’s not the highest level of performance offered by Cadillac, either. The “V” line, currently including the CTS-V and ATS-V, is sharper still, but the V-Sport trim strikes a slightly more pedestrian balance between hardcore and practical. Think M550i, not quite M5.

Also debuting is an all-new Cadillac 4.2-liter twin-turbo DOHC V8, the first of its kind for GM’s top-level luxury brand. In 550-horsepower trim, this clean-sheet engine will power the CT6 V-Sport; a lesser, 500-horsepower version will find its way to non-V-Sport models.


The notion of the "tame" version of a motor pumping out 500 horsepower is a staggering sign of the times, but we’re all for it.

CADILLAC
The motor features a hot-vee architecture, with the turbos nestled into the 90-degree valley between the cylinder banks. It’s an increasingly common engine layout in large sedans looking to make big power, thanks in large part to how compact it makes the entire package. Mercedes-AMG, BMW and Audi all have engines that feature this type of design, which gives minimal-lag turbo power to today's E63s, M5s and RS7s.

Like the engines born in Affalterbach, Munich and Ingolstadt, the new Caddy powerplants will be hand-built—in this case, hailing from GM’s Bowling Green, Kentucky factory, where Corvettes are assembled. Each engine will bear a plaque noting that it was hand-crafted by one of the performance power plant team members.

ADVERTISEMENT - CONTINUE READING BELOW

CADILLAC
Early development numbers for the V-Sport variant are impressive, to say the least. Peak torque was quoted at 627lb-ft, coming on from 3200rpm to 4000rpm, with peak power of 550 horses arriving at the 5700rpm mark. The turbos will be running 20 lbs of boost apiece, shoving air into cylinders with a 9.8:1 compression ratio. The non-V-Sport motor makes 500 horsepower at 5000rpm and 553 lb-ft from 2600-4600rpm.

Both engines will have active fuel management systems that allow them to run on four cylinder under light load. This will be the first DOHC V8 to feature cylinder deactivation—thus far, it’s only been found on the pushrod small blocks found in everything from Escalades to Camaros to Silverados. Consumption numbers were not specified.

Power will be routed through GM’s 10-speed automatic, currently found in the Escalade and a few other vehicles in the General Motors stable; both V-Sport and base CT6 models will be all-wheel drive. While engineers note that the engine could be easily adapted to a rear-wheel drive application, there are no current plans to do so. We’ll have to wait and see whether this will replace the 6.2-liter supercharged V8 currently found in the track-stomping CTS-V, or whether something even wilder is in the pipeline.

 

[Gecko]

^Agree on CT6. There was some discussion about this in the CT6 thread here in The Garage.

Unfortunately for Cadillac, the LS will outsell the CT6 probably 7 to 1 just because it's an LS. Lexus always sees the business case and knows that, regardless of the engine they put in it. Cadillac sees the long term plan and is playing for bragging rights and prestige. Different approaches, but I personally have more respect for Cadillac's.

What is troubling to me is the general Toyota-fixation of Lexus over the last few years, but that's a matter for another thread. Everything has become a streamlined cost cutting exercise, which we know is part of TNGA.

For example, should UX and LS have the same steering wheel? Probably not...
Should the Camry and LS have the same number of cylinders? Probably not...

 

[Ian Schmidt]

The CT won't sell much, but the high-end engines will be pretty much pure profit for the General since they're coming off the Vette line. Hopefully the interior will be better than GM standard; that's been a Caddy sore spot for a while now.

What is troubling to me is the general Toyota-fication of Lexus over the last few years, but that's a matter for another thread. Everything has become a streamlined cost cutting exercise, which we know is part of TNGA.

That's true to an extent, but not everything points that way. What part of building and selling the LC almost exactly from the concept was a cost-cutting exercise? And you can play the "same number of cylinders as a low end model" game with any brand these days while everyone plays the CAFE (and Euro equivalent) game. After all, the LS has the same number of cylinders as a Ford GT.

 

[Levi]

After all, the LS has the same number of cylinders as a Ford GT.

Or a Porsche 911 GT3 RS.

 

[Gecko]

The CT won't sell much, but the high-end engines will be pretty much pure profit for the General since they're coming off the Vette line. Hopefully the interior will be better than GM standard; that's been a Caddy sore spot for a while now.

I read somewhere that the Caddy engines are exclusive and won't be shared with the new Corvette, but TBD on what ends up being true.

That's true to an extent, but not everything points that way. What part of building and selling the LC almost exactly from the concept was a cost-cutting exercise? And you can play the "same number of cylinders as a low end model" game with any brand these days while everyone plays the CAFE (and Euro equivalent) game. After all, the LS has the same number of cylinders as a Ford GT.

For sure, and I get what where you are going. LC is the one car that is keeping my hope alive right now. If we didn't have that, I'd be a lot more concerned... also excited for the LQ.

 

[spwolf]

What is troubling to me is the general Toyota-fixation of Lexus over the last few years, but that's a matter for another thread. Everything has become a streamlined cost cutting exercise, which we know is part of TNGA.

For example, should UX and LS have the same steering wheel? Probably not...
Should the Camry and LS have the same number of cylinders? Probably not...

uh, you are looking at this completely wrong my friend.

Point of TNGA is to cut costs, especially capital costs and invest them back into the vehicles to be more competitive vs competition.

Steering wheel of LS is exactly great example - LS has high end steering wheel, and cheap UX has been able to get very similar wheel because they cut other overall costs of the vehicle. LS did not get UX wheel, it is other way around. And wow you end up with luxury steering wheel in UX, while in X1 competition steering wheel looks like it came from Toyota, and lets not even talk about base level on board computer which looks like it is from Yugo.

So with them cutting development costs of UX and ES and C-HR, etc, they managed to put more tech, more engines, more luxury into the same price. Unlike before, where to get lower price, they cut interior and engine tech in cheaper vehicles, so you ended up with 4 speed automatic or brittle plastics in Corolla.

It is pretty exciting actually, and completely opposite from them cost cutting their cars.