Rendered: The Production Lexus LF-1 Limitless Crossover

Buried in an Australian Financial Review interview of Lexus International president Yoshihiro Sawa (featured in a Lexus Enthusiast news story and separate Lexus Lounge thread) is this noteworthy passage:

Lexus has also displayed a much larger and more luxurious "concept" known as the LF-1 Limitless...although Sawa won't confirm as much, a production version is likely to be shown at next year's Tokyo Motor Show.

In other words, the 2019 Tokyo Motor Show's first press day (most likely Wednesday 30 October) could see the first reveal of Lexus' 6th crossover/SUV line.

^^^

Wow, I never thought we will see the production LF-1 this fast

Some great posts here recently....

Another angle I want to add. If one has a RX and wants to go to the next level and stay with the company, they have no option. There is no RX F. There is no RX Coupe or SUV Coupe from Lexus. They WILL NOT want a GX or LX. So they have to jump ship. The LF-1 would satisfy a growing need of people who love their RX's and want to go up a notch or two. A LC esque SUV hits all the damn marks IMO.

I've put a lot of thought into the LF-1 recently and then thought of our personal situation.

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

(edit, I also didn't include now the Italians and the Brit with the Stelvo and Levante and F-Pace now offering 550hp plus options)



As for the LX I've talked to quite a few LC and LX owners and I find it's not that the LC owner cannot afford a LX, they just prefer the low key Toyota Badge to the Lexus. Many are longtime LC owners as Gecko stated and they will continue to buy a LC.

It didn't work for VW too well but I recall speaking to Tourag owners about their decision to get it over a Cayenne and it was the same thing. They preferred the low key badge to owning a Porsche.

As for me personally I don't give AF how old the LX is, what is it based on, it's MPG etc. I am head over heels for it. And it drives shockingly nimble for a BOF tank that weighs 6000lbs. It defies physics and truly astounds me. Try driving a G-Wagon or Escalade it constantly reminds you its a BOF.

What I would like to see? More interior options, not just wood (aluminum, piano black wood, black headliner). The red leather option is an amazingly great decision. More cubby space, there isn't much random places to store items. And I really wish the TRD S/C was an option for 500hp.

And the thing is you might get a few LX owners who jump ship to a LF-1 but most will only consider a LX and maybe the LF-1 joins the fleet of vehicles they have. Totally different markets though I assumed priced the same.

mikeavelli

And ladies & gents no matter if you like it or not, the German's SUV coupes sell like hotcakes. In addition they are making M/AMG/S/RS versions of all these SUV's. BMW has pushed over 100,000 X6's a vehicle that has gotten destroyed by the media and most forums. Benz has the two SUV coupes now. BMW two now. Audi's Q8 arrives shortly. These are vehicles people want no matter how they defy logic. Luxury does not equate logic at all, it is a emotional purchase as we all know. Otherwise we would all drive Corollas.

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfort can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

Levi

I agree with you, but I think you and many others do not grasp the 'logic'. What may seem illogic - because CUVs/SUVs are not really best at anything: less space efficient than wagons, bigger than hatches, less space for cargo and people than vans, less (if at all) off-road capable than 4x4, worse handling than sedans, not as good looking a coupes, usually less luxurious than high-end cars (changing with LX, GLS, X7, Bentayga, etc.), not as rugged as utes - turns up to be something very logic: customers WANT a jack off all trades. I think customers themselves are not even aware of that, and that is the reason car manufacturers fail to some extent with their market research, they cannot get the feedback from customers that do not consciously know what they want, they just feel they want it. This 'want' is not well measured, because it is not quantitatively nor qualitatively realized, neither by manufacturers nor by customers.

The Toyota CH-R and Mercedes GLC Coupe sell so well, because that is exactly the type of car that is wanted. I expect the X2 also to be a huge success, though it is overpriced. What killed sedans in Europe at least, where hatches, not CUVs/SUV's, which are not more than taller/lifted hatches, now made to look (rugged). [About rugged I wonder if customers really want that look with plastic cladding.] What killed wagons are CUVs/SUVs, but not because of their greater cargo or passenger space, but rather the slightly higher sitting position, which I would say is more about have the same view height as when a person is standing, rather than "seeing over the car in front". And next is handling: adaptive suspension is solves this 'jack of all trades' issue, but a good compromise of handling (sportiness) and comfor63t can be achieve with simple hardware: suspension setting and tires (not low profile, but somewhere in the middle, between low and high). [I personally dislike car setting knobs.] Last there is AWD, something I think most customers would want, if money were not an issue (with exception of those that really want only RWD).

It is all about having the feeling of being "free", be able to do "everything", have one car that fits every situation.

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

mikeavelli

Let me clarify by logic I mean the SUV Coupes which really limit cargo space for the sake of style. SUV's are a very logical choice, I am not anti-SUV at all.

I for one think a RX "coupe" for example while making no sense for many people will be perfect for others who want a raised stylish vehicle as you stated but don't require tons of cargo room. Unfortunately this isn't an option at Lexus as dealers pushed extremely hard for a 7 seater.

Just as we have sedans and wagons for more cargo, the same can go for CUVs/SUVs, like GLC Wagon and GLC Coupe. As I said, I do not see evidence (at least in Europe) that CUVs/SUVs are purchased only for cargo purposes, thus the less practical makes sense. Just customers need time to accept and dare buying the less practical version, without fear of resale value etc. Another issue is that many CUVs/SUVs are too tall, van-ish, and would not look good as a 'coupe'.

I wish I could build and sell some cars, bypassing some regulations. They would/should be hits.

Both LX and LC200 are made primarily for different markets than US. For such reasons, they will never stop being what they are, they can do it only better with more variation in trims, stronger engine and better looks.

This is why LX got such extensive redesign, it started outselling LS worldwide 8-9 years ago so they put more money into it.

So it can never make too much sense from US point of view, it is luxury SUV made for the deserts and rough roads, as such it will never truly compete with LF-1.

And Levi, both LC150 and LC200 have poor quality interiors ever since last FMC long time ago. They are poor for the price. Yes, they have gotten better with MMC's, but not that much better. I have driven many when I worked at Toyota. So many. And LC200 does not have a very hard wearing interior. We had problems with seats and wheels ever since start. They were very popular back then, since this is Eastern Europe and people did not complain much, but today, even last updated Prado is simply not good enough for the price. Thankfully buyers get it for go-anywhere ability and legendary reliability.

I am sure that for FMC, they will make it as good as it should have been. Many new Toyota's, especially upcoming ones, have better perceived quality than those two (and yes I am talking about cheap ones).

As I always say and a lot of guys here knew it

I want the Land Cruiser to be a brand or even sub-brand and put all Toyota & Lexus BOF vehicles under it

(Mid)
Hilux with Fortuner & Innova
Fortuner= sporty design
Innova= traditional design

(Mid - Full)
*Go with the likes of Cayenne, X5/X6, GLE/GLE-Coupe in luxurious side as well as Pajero and other non luxurious mid-full
Tacoma with 4-Runner & Prado
4-Runner= sporty design
Prado= traditional design

(Full-HD)
* Go with the likes of GLS, Escalade, Navigator, Vogue, Bentayga & Cullinan as well as the other non luxurious as the Expedition & Suburban
Tundra with Seqouia & Cygnus
Seqouia= sporty design
Cygnus= traditional design

(Epic)
FJ-70 with pick-up & SUV version
Going with the G, Defender, Wrangler

maiaramdan

As I always say and a lot of guys here knew it

I want the Land Cruiser to be a brand or even sub-brand and put all Toyota & Lexus BOF vehicles under it

(Mid)
Hilux with Fortuner & Innova
Fortuner= sporty design
Innova= traditional design

(Mid - Full)
*Go with the likes of Cayenne, X5/X6, GLE/GLE-Coupe in luxurious side as well as Pajero and other non luxurious mid-full
Tacoma with 4-Runner & Prado
4-Runner= sporty design
Prado= traditional design

(Full-HD)
* Go with the likes of GLS, Escalade, Navigator, Vogue, Bentayga & Cullinan as well as the other non luxurious as the Expedition & Suburban
Tundra with Seqouia & Cygnus
Seqouia= sporty design
Cygnus= traditional design

(Epic)
FJ-70 with pick-up & SUV version
Going with the G, Defender, Wrangler

Isn't the Toyota Innova a BOF MPV rather than SUV?


But yes, it could make sense. Yet the question to be answered is what brand/cars have image and improve the sales of the other one? Are Toyota models 'respected' because of the legendary BOF models, or are the BOF models legendary because they have Toyota's legendary reliability? What happens is they normal Toyotas and BOF cars are separated? Should they be still marketed under Toyota umbrella or be an all new brand (like Lexus, which in marketing tries to have or has little if any relation to Toyota)? And how much does marketing of a new brand cost? Will it be successful?

An example is how FCA made turned SRT variants into a sub-brand (like they did with the Fiat Punto/500/124 Spier and Abarth Punto/500/124 Spider). While the Abarth brand is successful from a marketing perspective, the SRT brand was not, and they stopped. On the other hand, making the Dodge Ram a Ram sub-brand turned out successful. Range Rover as a Land Rover sub-brand turns out to be fine, but the overall lineup makes little sense now. For Mercedes-Benz and their Mercedes-AMG and Mercedes-Maybach sub-brands, it is too early to tell. Despite years of debate whether M should be a sub-brand, they have no stand-alone model, not even the up-coming (Toyota co-)developed Z4. According to latest news, the i Brand may not exist as such anymore, and i will be a BMW variant like M, rather than a stand alone model.

Such a decision, if implemented demands a lot of effort, and also budget. It will only be made if their is significant long-term gain with low risk. Is it the case?

It's not that complicated. Land Cruiser is a good enough brand name alone. It's not like there is a "FCA Jeep", just Jeep. I'm sure those extremely creative people in Japan can come up with good suffix for each model. Or they can always use a numerical system like "Land Cruiser FJ-1".

@Levi

The Land Cruiser name is really so powerful everywhere around the earth from Australia to South America , from Russia to South Africa, and honestly it makes me sad to see this name became a shadow to useless letters numerical name.

The name weights a lot regardless the reason, but I can answer you that the name got its power from the history, in the time Toyota was still starting and contains a lot of issues"remember what happened to the crown first time Toyota entered the states".

So Toyota was not created as a reliability guru, but on the other hand Land Cruiser was created from day1 as un-destructive off-road vehicle, it's a heritage been built from early 50th of the previous century

Regarding to the case study we have Land Rover, it's all SUV brand and they are doing amazing, by the way the R&D for the next Toyota BOF will only have main chassis derivative from the TNGA, so it will take less R&D cost to make a lot of variants with different sizes.

Jeep , Land Rover & GMC will be here for some more time than brands that have no CUVs or SUVs

maiaramdan

The Land Cruiser name is really so powerful everywhere around the earth from Australia to South America , from Russia to South Africa, and honestly it makes me sad to see this name became a shadow to useless letters numerical name.

Except in Western Europe, where only a few understand what a Land Cruiser is. There are so few of them, that other than the Hilux (pickup), I think outsold by the Ford Ranger, Nissan Navara and VW Amarok, No person really cares about Land Cruiser. If to talk off-road, Land Rover/Range Rover, Jeep or G Wagon are the only 4x4 that come to their mind.

Toyota already a minor player in Western Europe

But in the other hand Aus/ Mid East buying by tons from LCs , same goes with Russia and most post soviet countries,

Africa and Ocenia especially Aus depending a lot on it

NA market most of them knows well what Land Cruiser is

Honestly to get out of this dilemma, even if Land Cruiser not having the heritage they have and Toyota made a SUV brand to go with Land Rover and Jeep they will have a winner card because of Toyota brand reliability recognition, same as the first years in Lexus life

Some spy pics of the Q8, what the LF-1 would be up against...

It's not only Q8
It will be also X6, GLE coupe, Urus, AMG SUV & mainly Levante

Lexus with it's "L" is going head to head with Maserati
The LS can be easily rebranded as Quattroporte and the Levante will be do much the upcoming production of the LF-1, which I still believe they should name it GX

maiaramdan

It's not only Q8
It will be also X6, GLE coupe, Urus, AMG SUV & mainly Levante

Lexus with it's "L" is going head to head with Maserati
The LS can be easily rebranded as Quattroporte and the Levante will be do much the upcoming production of the LF-1, which I still believe they should name it GX

Th LF-1 I assume will be positioned higher since its a flagship SUV based off the LS/LC. The GLE/X6 are not flagship SUV's, the GLS holds that distinction. The Q8 is based off the Q7 and likely will be positioned higher than the X6/GLE. I know a bit confusing since they are all 4 door coupe SUV's at this point.

This is not going head to head with the Levante, that vehicle also is mid size and more Ghilbi than Quattroporte.

The Quattroporte is kind of in its own realm with pricing. It hasn't sold well this generation or gotten reviewed much.

That said I assume they will all be somewhat cross shopped especially when the prices start mixing.

@mikeavelli

On the Maserati part I mean the design language of the LS/LF-1 is somehow Italian as Quattroporte/Levante

Regarding the size Levante nearly 5M same current LX length so it's full-size

Regarding the GLE coupe and X6 I mean design wize , as yes I agree with you they can't be flagships

Returning to our main topic
It will be better if the LF-1 appeared as next generation GX going after Q8 & Urus with the next generation LX also ditch the BOF for sonsometh more square and luxurious to go for the X7, GLS, Cullinan, Bentayga & Vogue

maiaramdan

On the Maserati part I mean the design language of the LS/LF-1 is somehow Italian as Quattroporte/Levante

Regarding the size Levante nearly 5M same current LX length so it's full-size

Regarding the GLE coupe and X6 I mean design wize , as yes I agree with you they can't be flagships

Returning to our main topic
It will be better if the LF-1 appeared as next generation GX going after Q8 & Urus with the next generation LX also ditch the BOF for sonsometh more square and luxurious to go for the X7, GLS, Cullinan, Bentayga & Vogue

The new Maseratis look more Korean/Chinese than Italian.

Beauty in the eye of the beholder
All in all I really like the current Levante and Quattroporte

Also I really hope a uniframe in both next generation LX & GX one for supreme Luxury and the other for the ultimate Sport

maiaramdan

ultimate Sport

wrong car IMO

My view as Toyota don't have Bentley nor Lamborghini brands so it can have both Bentayga & Urus in the lineup and they will never intersected even with same price range as everyone of them deal with different types of customers

I just came back from a business trip to Shenzhen, where they have a very strong luxury car culture. It's painful to see that the LF-1 takes another three years to make. Like everywhere else, there is an unstoppable move to crossovers in the full-size luxury market. While there is still a significant of S-class and even S-class Maybach sales, non-MB sedans like the LS, 7 Series LWB, A8L, and other minor players are already on their way out. GLS, X5s, and Range Rovers fill the roads, but the LX is close to non-existent because the fuel economy is just way too punishing (it's not about gas price, but very frequent refueling that cause a lot of inconvenience).

The J200 LX has a comfortable niche of its own. It is still a very profitable program. But its replacement is way past-due. It should be on a 9-year model cycle and be replaced in 2016. When they are planning on such a vehicle, global economy was already recovering so they should expect a boom in the high value market during the 2015-2020 timeframe. That's how you run a luxury company, you plan your products after economy start recovering so they are ready when the boom comes; if you wait until the economy has already recovered, you risk launching the vehicle into another recession. Mercedes knows this by heart; many of their recent strong products are launched just at the right time to ride the wave.

How Lexus failed to make a business case for a unibody full-size crossover is completely beyond me. They should know very well the BOF GX and LX will keep being niche products, and they know there is clearly a hole above the RX.

We are looking at one of the biggest business failures in their entire history, maybe even more damaging than the RC flop. Even at a very modest estimate of 30k units per year world wide, they are losing 2 billion dollars a year (that's almost 10% of their total revenue) in potential sales from 2016 to 2020 for a total of 10 billion. And it's not just about sales alone, the even more damaging part is conceding market share to other players. When the LF-1 hits in 2020, the market will be saturated by a dozen products instead of three if they did it in 2016.

If I were Lexus I would even go so far as delaying the ES for six months to have the LX successor ready before 2018. LC in 2016, LS in 2017, LX in 2018, just imagine that. Lexus would have a strong flagship trinity on the same level as or even surpassing Mercedes. But alas they are still in the LX succession crisis that they will forever regret.

@ssun30
100% with you brother
Something wrong at Lexus management level, they keep taking a very stupid decisions lately

We will see what will happen

It is incomprehensible how Toyota went from CUV/SUV creator and leader to lagger. Maybe their hybrid program hindered that, but now others have caught up to some extent, and also in reliability, others are not that far behind anymore, if at all. HFCEV and autonomous driving might have been cash eaters. They started first and alone, compared to consortium and start-ups today.

Except for the reliability/durability, I consider the Land Cruiser to have been beaten by the 1st gen Cayenne/Touareg and Range Rover. Now it is a different story, because the first are more CUVs than SUVs, but that is what the new Land Cruiser and LX should have been.

One question that I have not seen answered/have no answer for is if what look does a luxury CUV/SUV need to have that a customer should be interested in? Should it look like an off-road capable car or not? If yes, the LF-1 does not look that way.

Another question is how valuable is a separate cargo compartment for a luxury comfortable car? I doubt any luxury SUV/CUV transports a washing machine, land mower or anything of the kind. Thus, folding rear seats are not a necessity, which permits a isolating 'wall' behind rear seats and cargo compartment.

Levi

Another question is how valuable is a separate cargo compartment for a luxury comfortable car? I doubt any luxury SUV/CUV transports a washing machine, land mower or anything of the kind. Thus, folding rear seats are not a necessity, which permits a isolating 'wall' behind rear seats and cargo compartment.

That is actually an interesting point as the Tesla Model X has hardly any cubby space, the cargo space is okay at best and people just love the vehicle.

mikeavelli

That is actually an interesting point as the Tesla Model X has hardly any cubby space, the cargo space is okay at best and people just love the vehicle.

The question is if they actually don't care about cargo space or if they're just Tesla-mesmerized. People put up with a lot of things in those cars that they wouldn't anywhere else (for instance, using a jack on the Model X to change a tire will bend the body and make the fancy doors stop working; you have to have a lift).

Ian Schmidt

The question is if they actually don't care about cargo space or if they're just Tesla-mesmerized. People put up with a lot of things in those cars that they wouldn't anywhere else (for instance, using a jack on the Model X to change a tire will bend the body and make the fancy doors stop working; you have to have a lift).

Really?

Huh. I'll tell my friend who had his warranty cancelled that he did it wrong :) Or at least without the magic orange piece to distribute the load.

Ian Schmidt

The question is if they actually don't care about cargo space or if they're just Tesla-mesmerized. People put up with a lot of things in those cars that they wouldn't anywhere else

Yeah the excuses I see given on things is pretty hilarious...but Tesla has some magic!

Honestly Land Cruiser whatever it will be a brand, sub-brand or model they always need to be stiff BOF SUV