Tech

More Rumors on the Lexus Twin-Turbo 4.0L V8 Engine

Lexus LS Twin Turbo V6

Practical Motoring has more on the rumored twin-turbo 4.0L V8 engine that could power the next-generation of Lexus F models:

…an anonymous source with knowledge of the upcoming North American Lexus LS model range confirmed to [Practical Motoring] that Lexus will be introducing a 4.0-litre twin-turbocharged petrol V8 engine. The source also claims there is ‘a good chance’ that same engine will be placed into an LC F and, it would only be logical, that it will also be placed into the upcoming GS F.

Speaking with Lexus Australia PR communications manager, Nick Raman, PM was told that Lexus had some exciting news up its sleeve for this years Tokyo motor show: “For sure, we are going to have some very interesting news”, he said, “we will have something to show at Tokyo” – but Raman could not allude if that something will be an ‘F’ vehicle or if it will powered by the speculated turbo V8.

(While there’s no denying Lexus will try and make a splash in Tokyo, they’ve already publicly denied the LC F will debut at the show.)

Comments
Rhambler
The fact that Lexus had almost a decade to develop a V8 for the new LS and yet what do we see upon the introduction of the new LS? A 3.5l V6, that was caught testing against competitor's V8s.
*Caught* testing it against competitor's V8s?

1) All of the cars in the segment are going to a turbo six as the base engine
2) All of the manufacturers know these sixes will be compared fiercely against the segment's existing base V8s
3) QED, Lexus is testing the TTV6 against the segment's existing V8s. I would be shocked if the Germans weren't doing the same thing with their sixes.
R
Are you saying that because the V6 was tested against the V8s that Lexus will introduce a V8? That makes no sense.

Listen to Jeff Bracken at the NAIAS unveiling. The first thing out of his mouth when it came to the engine was "V8 level power...". Yeah, V8 level power from a decade ago, lol.

To me, that statement is another indication Lexus has no intention of introducing a V8.

If Lexus had foresight, they would have introduced a V8 at launch. They missed it.

Seriously, some of the arguments now are borderline funny.
Rhambler
Are you saying that because the V6 was tested against the V8s that Lexus will introduce a V8? That makes no sense.
You were trying to claim it was some great calamity that the all-new Lexus TTV6 was being benchmarked against the current German base V8s. I'm saying that it's entirely sensible for them to do so, because the entire segment is moving down to 6 cylinders as the base engine, and all of the base sixes in the category are going to be judged on if they're better than the V8s they're replacing. If final measured power on the Lexus TTV6 is even ballpark it's going to beat all the German sixes and pretty much all of the current base V8s as well, and probably have the best fuel economy to boot.

Meanwhile people will notice Mercedes has been rebadging Nissans, the rumors will come true about Audi/VAG merging with FiatChrysler, and BMW will re-hire Chris Bangle ;-)
Rhambler
Are you saying that because the V6 was tested against the V8s that Lexus will introduce a V8? That makes no sense.

Listen to Jeff Bracken at the NAIAS unveiling. The first thing out of his mouth when it came to the engine was "V8 level power...". Yeah, V8 level power from a decade ago, lol.

To me, that statement is another indication Lexus has no intention of introducing a V8.

If Lexus had foresight, they would have introduced a V8 at launch. They missed it.

Seriously, some of the arguments now are borderline funny.
S500 421HP, LS500 450HP
R
Well, I guess you missed the point: I said that in rebuke to a Lexus V8.

I'm claiming these rumors are wishful thinking. I'm INFERRING that by them testing the V6 against competitor's V8, Lexus probably felt the V6 will stand in for a V8, which lends credence to the wishful thinking part.

I also think their omission of a V8, in this class of car, is a gigantic mistake.

So I'm not sure where you're going with "it's natural to test a V6 against a V8" as that has nothing to do with what I was trying to imply.
Rhambler
Well, I guess you missed the point: I said that in rebuke to a Lexus V8.

I'm claiming these rumors are wishful thinking. I'm INFERRING that by them testing the V6 against competitor's V8, Lexus probably felt the V6 will stand in for a V8, which lends credence to the wishful thinking part.

I also think their omission of a V8, in this class of car, is a gigantic mistake.

So I'm not sure where you're going with "it's natural to test a V6 against a V8" as that has nothing to do with what I was trying to imply.
Just wait and get slapped in the face when Lexus release the TTV8. We shall see.
R
Ok, indeed we shall...
It would be hilarious if the Lexus V8 TT came out in time to embarrass Rhambler's Audi S7.
Rhambler
Well, I guess you missed the point: I said that in rebuke to a Lexus V8.

I'm claiming these rumors are wishful thinking. I'm INFERRING that by them testing the V6 against competitor's V8, Lexus probably felt the V6 will stand in for a V8, which lends credence to the wishful thinking part.

I also think their omission of a V8, in this class of car, is a gigantic mistake.

So I'm not sure where you're going with "it's natural to test a V6 against a V8" as that has nothing to do with what I was trying to imply.
if this don't tell you anything then only Lexus can put your argument to rest.

Its obvious every car maker do their research on their competitors. Lexus made a move by offering a powerful engine with V8 power don't mean the V8 engine is GONE. what do you have to say about this

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/09/new-mercedes-amg-53-430-horsepower-turbo-inline-six/

Does that mean Mercedes Benz is getting rid of there V8 engine?

LS500 = new Mercedes s class inline 6 tt engine
Porsche Panamera 2.9L turbo engine. Audi and BMW is going to do the same
And am glad Lexus chose the 3.5L engine it only shows there dedication to build an engine that wont be stressed and would be reliable (what Lexus is known for)

So Lexus making a V6TT as powerful as a V8 was done because of critics like you. I understand we are all humans and we can never be satisfied.
R
There's nothing I have to say because Mercedes just put in a brand new V8 in the new S560 making northward of 460 HP. Even Porsche, known for their six cylinders, offers a V8 of all things in their panamera, today, and I'm sure tomorrow as well, that pushes 550 HP. So the point of your argument is what? You brought up those cars because of why?

If anything it goes to show you how Cadillac or Lincoln Lexus has become in regards to engine choices, especially for its top offering. In fact Lexus offers even less.
I doubt Lexus would put a TTV8 with 600 PS in a RWD car. Even the new M5 goes AWD.
Rhambler
I'm claiming these rumors are wishful thinking. I'm INFERRING that by them testing the V6 against competitor's V8, Lexus probably felt the V6 will stand in for a V8, which lends credence to the wishful thinking part.
Of course they did, because *the entire segment* is having a TTV6 stand in for a V8. The large majority of cars in this segment are the base engine. I'll ask again: do you actually drive something in this segment? And having a TTV6 that's within 6 HP of M-B's TTV8 tells me that yes, it stands in for a V8 quite spectacularly.

Meanwhile we're probably 6 months from ship date on the LS500 and Lexus has been caught testing LS mules with "unusually loud engines" so I think the V8 is coming right on time.
Rhambler
There's nothing I have to say because Mercedes just put in a brand new V8 in the new S560 making northward of 460 HP. Even Porsche, known for their six cylinders, offers a V8 of all things in their panamera, today, and I'm sure tomorrow as well, that pushes 550 HP. So the point of your argument is what? You brought up those cars because of why?

If anything it goes to show you how Cadillac or Lincoln Lexus has become in regards to engine choices, especially for its top offering. In fact Lexus offers even less.
Thats a shame on mercedes if the decade old NA engine from lexus can put out a 471. but guess what if lexus put that same engine in the new LS I know people that would still complain about it

The point of the argument is that Lexus has a V6TT just like its competitors and just like you said the S560 has a new V8 so why can't the new LS have a new V8. Mind you, the new LS is not out on sale yet and it still has almost 6 months for it to go on sale. Its a different conversation if the car is out for sale already like those brands you mentioned. You only have a point when the car go on sale with just the V6TT until then the only valid argument you have is what the guy at the NAIAS said. But, remember when you put that argument out there He did not say there wont be a new V8 engine from Lexus.
The point he is making is that the current owners of the BASE LS460 that love the V8 power won't loose the power they get by upgrading to the new BASE LS matter of fact they would be getting a more powerful engine.
R
The original point I was making is that I honestly don't believe Lexus will introduce a V8.

All evidence suggests otherwise other than here say and rumors. I made my case, I won't regurgitate them here. Until they announce it, it doesn't exist.

Why does my ownership of such a car have anything to do with my comments? Why aren't you asking what Bogglo drives or anyone else? Does it matter?

Has it come down to what car you drive adds credence to your argument? Lol.
C
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    CIF
  • August 13, 2017
IMO this discussion has become really silly.

Is Lexus going to introduce a brand new V8 in the coming future? Yes, it's virtually a guarantee, and here is why. For future F vehicles, Lexus needs a next-generation engine, as the current 2UR engine won't cut it going forward. Also the current F engine has now become a standard engine in the LC. So the rumored LC F, what would it be using? The only choice is a new next-generation engine. Slapping a turbo or two onto the current 2UR is not a suitable option.

Aside from that, Lexus (and Toyota) large SUV and truck models are going to need a new V8 to stay competitive. The next-gen LX can't keep going with the dated 3UR engine. Nor can the coming next-gen Tundra or next-gen Sequoia. Not to mention the next-gen Land Cruiser. The new V35A from the new LS may not be a suitable engine for these models. So either for these models, or for future Lexus F vehicles, it's basically guaranteed that at least one or more new V8 designs will debut.

Also if a new V8 debuts only for the LS F, but not the regular LS, will that be a disappointment? In some sense yes, but it won't be the end of the world. It will still count as the LS having a V8, even if it's only on a low production LS F.

Furthermore, the new generation of Dynamic Force engines are very much tied into the TNGA platforms. Due to the Dynamic Force philosophy, I'm sure Toyota wants to replace all existing old engines with new designs as soon as they reasonably can.

So the only thing in question is how many new V8s will debut, and what Toyota and Lexus models will be getting the V8 engine(s).
R
I don't think so, I do believe that oddly-sized 3.5l will indeed be in the F, assuming Lexus even keeps producing Fs.

The days of V8s are over for Lexus. There's no better car to put it in then the flagship and they didn't.

A tuned-up 3.5l will likely makes it way into the Fs. Yes, not some wishful-thinking V8.

If Lexus had any sense, they would have developed and produced a 3.0 V6 and 4.0 liter V8, using 0.5 liters per cylinder. This would have kept the displacement under the 4.0 liter euro tax, while enabling them to share a lot of engineering time. There's a reason almost every manufacturer has gone this route. The 3.0 V6 is more or less the 4.0 V8 with two banks chopped off or conversely the V8 is the V6 with two banks added at 0.5 liters per cylinder.

The 3.5l ballooned up would push it over the European 4.0 cylinder displacement tax envelope and in this day and age, especially for a company like Toyota, who rarely develops engines outside of hybrids, that would be a huge engineering waste of development time.

That's why I do believe this 3.5l is the pinnacle. As pathetic as that sounds, it is, as Jeff Bracken so eloquently said: "developed with F1 technology with V8 power." What better engine to put in the F, ha...

So keep dreaming and relish in Toyota's dumb move once again.
I too do not see a Lexus V8, simply because Lexus does not need any. Mercedes, BMW and VAG have 12 cylinders because well, they can (Maybach, Rolls Royce and Bentley). The V10 engine by VAG is an old engine (2 generations, based on an even older V8). Expect next R8 and Huracan replacement to get current 4.0l V8. Mercedes 4.0l V8 is based on their new generation modular engines and is basically tow I4. V6 is getting replaced by less costly and simpler I6 (I4 +2). BMW has their modular 1.5 I3, 2.0l I4 and 3.0l I6 engines. There were rumors of 4.0l V8 many years ago, but the new M5 will still get the engine based on the already 10 year old 4.4l V8 N63. New M3/M4 will continue with a newer I6, but no significant changes in their performance engines for the next 8 years. No new V8 from BMW, but rather hybridized I4 and I6 engines. Other car manufactures based have their 6 cylinder engines related to V8 rather than I4, thus the 90° angle rather than the 60° angle like Lexus. If Lexus made the V6 and V8 Dynamic Force engines related, they would both be 90°. If Lexus still brings a V8, than we can say they don't cheap out like the Germans and others. FCA 3.0l V6 makes 500 PS, and might come closer to 600 PS in the Ferrari Dino, if it ever comes.

The Land Cruiser's most sold engines that is not an I4 Diesel or V6 gasoline is the V8 Diesel. But this engine is no more sold in Western Europe due to regulations, and we never had any gasoline Land Cruiser 200. The V35A is enough to replace the 1UR, 2UR and 3UR. The replace the 1VD Toyota would have to build a new engine, if a V8 based on an I4. I think it would be cheaper but also simpler and better to utilize the BMW/Mercedes strategy, and simply stretch the 1GD to from 4 to 6 cylinders. It would make more than 300 PS and 700 Nm for the Land Cruiser. It would be a back to source engine, smooth, and "simple", especially as the next Land Cruiser should get IRS.

Although I like V8, I see no need for them. The Germans do not sell a lot of them, even if they earn quite a lot on them. Lexus is simply not as desired as anything German, however good it might be. More than that, V8 turbo does not sound better than the 2Ur, at that point, V6 turbo is fine, same performance, lighter, more compact.

Maybe the LC F will be a V6 TT+Hybrid.
R
Yep, these rumors are just pipe dreams.

Sadly, I do believe this decision, and in fact their entire engine strategy, will do nothing but ensure their sedan sales stay well behind the others.

SUVs are ubiquitous and you have to ask yourself this: why do people buy sedans and coupes in this golden age of cheap gas and SUVs? I can only come to a few conclusions: performance, speed and driving characteristics, as those are the only few attributes that these cars actually have over SUVs. There's no utility in sedans anymore, and absolutely none in coupes.

Their halo sedans and coupes will be pathetic, Acura-like, but that's ok as that's the decision they made.

I want this rumor to be true more than anyone here, but it's not reality and everything they have done up to this point is contrary to a V8 or anything that actually says perforformance or sedan other than sedans for geriatrics.
In an ideal world Lexus would do the following:
1) Debut 5LS with 3.0L V6TT/3.0L V6TT PHEV/4.0L V8TT
2) Follow up with 7ES and 2.0L I4T/2.0L I4T PHEV.
3) Show a hybridized V8 for future F vehicles.

Six different drivetrains are all Lexus needs (not counting UX/CT) and everybody will be happy. Cost will be low with only three ICEs and a standardised hybrid platform. Detune or uptune when differentiation is needed.

Instead we got LS introduced with a decade old GR, a decade old GR hybridized with an outdated battery (at least it's Li-ion now) and no practical EV range, and a 3.5 Dynamic Force that is in no-man's land. All three will suffer from unfavorable taxation in China, and people in US will be complaining about the lack of a V8. TMC has the best technology package but the execution is very sloppy. Maybe TMC doesn't have enough engineering resources, but that's the price they pay for procrastinating engine development until the previous generation is half a decade obsolete.

At least Lexus is not feeding people the "luxury four cylinder" BS (aka Volvo S90/BMW 7 hybrid) on 5LS. I wouldn't be surprised if Audi jumps on the BS bandwagon (seeing how Q7 chose I4 as the main engine) in the near future. Lexus and Mercedes might be the last preservers of decency.
C
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  • August 13, 2017
bogglo
http://www.autonews.com/article/201.../camrys-engine-tech-will-spread-across-toyota

[“Dynamic Force is not solely aimed at the 2.5-liter engine,” Schlimme said. “We are working to bring it to other segments.” That includes trucks and utility vehicles, said Schlimme.

He said Dynamic Force for V-6 and V-8 engines are in “concept” form.]



That article was posted on the 1st of the month.
This is pretty much the most direct evidence from Toyota that a new V8 or more will be coming in the future. If that's not evidence enough, I don't know what is.

I have a feeling that even if Toyota came out with a statement that officially said "Hello world, we are officially stating that brand new V8 engines are coming, including for the Lexus LS" then certain people would still doubt and criticize that new V8s were coming.
R
How many concept cars never make it to production? Engines are the same.

For them to say concept versus in development is a big difference in engineering terms.
CIF
This is pretty much the most direct evidence from Toyota that a new V8 or more will be coming in the future. If that's not evidence enough, I don't know what is.

I have a feeling that even if Toyota came out with a statement that officially said "Hello world, we are officially stating that brand new V8 engines are coming, including for the Lexus LS" then certain people would still doubt and criticize that new V8s were coming.
You already know that is going to happen.
Rhambler
How many concept cars never make it to production? Engines are the same.

For them to say concept versus in development is a big difference in engineering terms.
Hahahaha. I have to give it to you, once you believe in something only reality can knock you out of it. But let me ask you something. in your argument the only concrete prove that could have backed up your argument was the statement that was made back in Jan NAIAS(which only confirmed what the new base engine would be) and you believed it. Now why can't you believe a new report that is more recent and specifically states that infact a V8 is been worked on?

your point about the term concept and development can go either way because I can develop a concept.
@Rhambler, please exit this thread. Thank you.
ssun30
All three will suffer from unfavorable taxation in China, and people in US will be complaining about the lack of a V8. TMC has the best technology package but the execution is very sloppy.
We're roughly 6 months out from launch, so I'm not counting "lack of V8" until LS500s are actually at dealers. They could conceivably announce the V8 at NAIAS.

Secondly, on paper the TTV6 is a huge upgrade from the 1UR. Existing LS drivers certainly aren't gonna complain, and the added power should help against the Germans as well.
D
Just give me a Diesel for my Toyota Trucks and Diesel/Hybrid for my Lexus and we're cake!

D
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