More Rumors on the Lexus Twin-Turbo 4.0L V8 Engine

"... it would only be logical, that it will also be placed into the upcoming GS F."

So there will be a new GS after all and will not be cancelled? It's so confusing.

With the LS moving up in size (longer than the current long wheel base version) and the IS being as compact as it is (I seriously barely feel a difference between it and the CT) there would be a huge void without the GS. The FWD ES might be the same size, but there is no substitution for the RWD (relatively) high powered GS.


That being said. "Exciting news" could be anything. It could be the 7 seater RX since that would be very exciting for the general public who likes SUV's.

Lexus has been hinting at a turbocharged V8 for more than five years now... I'm ready for them to finally deliver.

Just a matter of when, not if.... For the sake of economies of scale the more products this engine is in, the better.

While all the focus is on the twin-turbo, will a N/A V-8 also debut? That would be fantastic...

The thing I don’t understand is Lexus recently announced 3.5 TT V6, why are they working on almost similar displacement V8? I expect this V8 TT to be 5 Liters

as an aside, I hope that they have a dry sump oil system in this engine. If you have a high performance engine (vehicle) then it should be completely prepared for serious track events. Without a dry sump oil system, you risk some issues (poor oil circulation) when driving hard on a track through difficult corners (like hairpin etc). So, let's see this detail addressed. the current V8 NA engine in the LC, RC F and GS F does NOT have a dry sump system.

N6600

"... it would only be logical, that it will also be placed into the upcoming GS F."

So there will be a new GS after all and will not be cancelled? It's so confusing.

I can't even keep track of the GS rumors right now, though I'd say the look of the new ES spells the end of two midsize sedans in the Lexus lineup.

It is nice, but I hope Lexus is late. Having tasted the forbidden fruit (electric car), I am not excited be internal combustion engines. IMO all great engines have been made, and there is nothing new to add. More interesting is energy storage development to have a world wide full transition to BEVs. As a stepping stone, I am more interested to see focused range extenders, rather than the huge bulky and complex I3/I4 cylinder engines.

Side note: Porsche's top range models are now PHEVs. Same with up-coming Ferrari and McLaren cars. Not to forget the Mercedes AMG-GT4 is rumored to be an 800 PS hybrid V8 Twin-Turbo. So Lexus is late.

Hmmm, I thought they would do something like this, on a message I posted, in the LS thread, back on Jan 9th. Way to go Lexus (if it's true) didn't think you would just release a 6 cylinder only option on Your Flagship Vehicle. It Only makes sense.



From my Jan. 9th thread:
"I'm just wondering if Lexus showcased that V6TT engine in the 2018 LS500 because it's their Newest Engine. We don't know for sure they won't put out an Optional V8 in this Vehicle. They made some changes (in power) to the original LC500 after they showcased it. Maybe they wanted to get some feedback first. It's not like they can't drop The LC500 V8 5.0 in that body. Hmmm

You have to admit though, power, torque and 0 to 60 numbers are Very Very Impressive on that V6TT engine. Maybe they have a V8TT in the making to really rival the Germans. IJS, JMTwoCents"

Levi

It is nice, but I hope Lexus is late. Having tasted the forbidden fruit (electric car), I am not excited be internal combustion engines. IMO all great engines have been made, and there is nothing new to add. More interesting is energy storage development to have a world wide full transition to BEVs. As a stepping stone, I am more interested to see focused range extenders, rather than the huge bulky and complex I3/I4 cylinder engines.

Side note: Porsche's top range models are now PHEVs. Same with up-coming Ferrari and McLaren cars. Not to forget the Mercedes AMG-GT4 is rumored to be an 800 PS hybrid V8 Twin-Turbo. So Lexus is late, just a BMW was late in the supercar game. At least Lexus had the LFA (best ICE ever made), and will be on par with BMW with the Toyota "Supra".

Levi

It is nice, but I hope Lexus is late. Having tasted the forbidden fruit (electric car), I am not excited be internal combustion engines. IMO all great engines have been made, and there is nothing new to add. More interesting is energy storage development to have a world wide full transition to BEVs. As a stepping stone, I am more interested to see focused range extenders, rather than the huge bulky and complex I3/I4 cylinder engines.

Side note: Porsche's top range models are now PHEVs. Same with up-coming Ferrari and McLaren cars. Not to forget the Mercedes AMG-GT4 is rumored to be an 800 PS hybrid V8 Twin-Turbo. So Lexus is late, just a BMW was late in the supercar game. At least Lexus had the LFA (best ICE ever made), and will be on par with BMW with the Toyota "Supra".

not really I think the LS600h did that already. Although Lexus had no plan of making it a performance engine.

Toyota has recently commented on the Dynamic Force technology used in the new Camry that improves power,fuel consumption and emissions saying that they're already working on v6 and v8 engines with this new technology.

Can

The thing I don’t understand is Lexus recently announced 3.5 TT V6, why are they working on almost similar displacement V8? I expect this V8 TT to be 5 Liters

Audi has a 4.0 V-8 that is a monster... it powers the S8 and makes 605hp now.. .and can go for more with a tune...

mikeavelli

Audi has a 4.0 V-8 that is a monster... it powers the S8 and makes 605hp now.. .and can go for more with a tune...

Benz also uses a small 4.0 V-8 now....

EXACTLY!!!!

RichieRich

"I'm just wondering if Lexus showcased that V6TT engine in the 2018 LS500 because it's their Newest Engine. We don't know for sure they won't put out an Optional V8 in this Vehicle. They made some changes (in power) to the original LC500 after they showcased it. Maybe they wanted to get some feedback first. It's not like they can't drop The LC500 V8 5.0 in that body. Hmmm

You have to admit though, power, torque and 0 to 60 numbers are Very Very Impressive on that V6TT engine. Maybe they have a V8TT in the making to really rival the Germans. IJS, JMTwoCents"

I don't know that the 5.0L V8 is a great fit for the LS without significant tuning to the engine & transmission. Outside of the LS 600h, that engine has been loud and high-revving -- not what you want in a flagship sedan.

I don't know why Lexus would be building an LS F ahead of an LC F, but I also don't know why they would waste resources modifying a rapidly obsolete engine.

Have to think this is the twin-turbo V8 -- there's so many rumors about it now, it might as well be fact.

Can

The thing I don’t understand is Lexus recently announced 3.5 TT V6, why are they working on almost similar displacement V8? I expect this V8 TT to be 5 Liters

They kept 3.5l displacement because Toyota didn't really develop engine from the scratch, they just called it brand new which is technically true. Regarding the 4.0l V8 displacement let's just say I hope I'm wrong and it will not turn out to be what I'm thinking as how they got to that number. Instead it could turn out to be a real new V8 engine family indeed or at least genuine 4UR.

mediumhot

They kept 3.5l displacement because Toyota didn't really develop engine from the scratch, they just called it brand new which is technically true. Regarding the 4.0l V8 displacement let's just say I hope I'm wrong and it will not turn out to be what I'm thinking as how they got to that number. Instead it could turn out to be a real new V8 engine family indeed or at least genuine 4UR.

What are you talking about?

The 3.5L TT V6 in the 5LS is BRAND NEW. As in, a brand new engine code, V35A.

There's all sorts of rumors regarding this TT V8, but the rumor of two AR 4 cylinders put together makes zero sense. The TT V8 is supposed to be a Dynamic Force engine, which means it has to be a brand new engine design.

If you actually read Toyota's literature about Dynamic Force, it's a different (than current) philosophy in engine design for Toyota. Existing engine designs cannot simply be re-used, or tweaked. Dynamic Force engines fundamentally differ from their predecessors.

The only way the rumored TT V8 is a "reused" engine is if it is not a Dynamic Force engine, which would be absurd and extremely unlikely.

krew

I don't know that the 5.0L V8 is a great fit for the LS without significant tuning to the engine & transmission. Outside of the LS 600h, that engine has been loud and high-revving -- not what you want in a flagship sedan.

I don't know why Lexus would be building an LS F ahead of an LC F, but I also don't know why they would waste resources modifying a rapidly obsolete engine.

Have to think this is the twin-turbo V8 -- there's so many rumors about it now, it might as well be fact.

I'm good with a TT V8, in a 4.0L or 5.0L. I haven't driven there turbo engines yet, so not sure how smooth and nice sounding they are.
Lexus will undoubtedly make sure the engines in The New LS are smooth and silky as possibly. Going Back to 1989 and after as a reference.

krew

I can't even keep track of the GS rumors right now, though I'd say the look of the new ES spells the end of two midsize sedans in the Lexus lineup.

That's what I am afraid of. But one is FWD, while the other RWD. And I don't consider ES as a real Lexus. I am sorry.

mediumhot

They kept 3.5l displacement because Toyota didn't really develop engine from the scratch, they just called it brand new which is technically true. Regarding the 4.0l V8 displacement let's just say I hope I'm wrong and it will not turn out to be what I'm thinking as how they got to that number. Instead it could turn out to be a real new V8 engine family indeed or at least genuine 4UR.

There are good reasons for choosing 3.5L and 4.0L. But not what you are thinking of. The Dynamic Force engines are highly undersquare (~0.8 bore/stroke ratio) while the GR/UR series are oversquare. In that sense the block needs to be completely redesigned. Also the internals need much better metallurgy to cope with the extra stress caused by a long stroke. Dynamic Force engines do not trade rpm for stroke, instead they are both high revving and long stroke. The combustion chamber are also completely redesigned to promote turbulent flow. They are also the first family of engines to combine the entire technology package Toyota has developed in the past decade, sans Valvematic. They left that alone since many Dynamic Force engines are designed with turbocharging in mind, which doesn't benefit from variable valve lift as much as NA.

The reason to choose 3.5L and 4.0L is because of taxes. In Japan and China, Toyota's two major markets, cars are taxed based on engine displacement, in 500cc increments starting from 999cc. 3.5 and 4.0 are two "sweetspots" for two respective markets since going up (3.6/4.2, for example) in displacement will result in significantly more tax burden for buyers. That's why you don't see intermediate displacements like 1.8, 2.4, 3.2, or 4.4 in these markets because they just don't make any sense. All new engines designed after 2012 by major manufacturers are multiples of 0.5L to maximize power while staying in the lowest tax bracket possible.

The 3.5 liter isn't high revving comparatively speaking. Look at the redline in some photos that show it. The massively under square design is apparent, which are typically found in boats more so than cars. They're really not known for performance.

3.0l would have made way more sense and the only reason I think they chose 3.5l is because they think they don't need a 4.0l V8 and hence why the 4.0l rumors are all hogwash imo. This 3.5l is Toyota's answer to V8 and poor one at that. Thinking some slow, low revving, high torque charade of an engine will makeup for a V8 is laughable.

This thing will not perform like a TT V8.

ssun30

The reason to choose 3.5L and 4.0L is because of taxes. In Japan and China, Toyota's two major markets, cars are taxed based on engine displacement, in 500cc increments starting from 999cc. 3.5 and 4.0 are two "sweetspots" for two respective markets since going up (3.6/4.2, for example) in displacement will result in significantly more tax burden for buyers. That's why you don't see intermediate displacements like 1.8, 2.4, 3.2, or 4.4 in these markets because they just don't make any sense. All new engines designed after 2012 by major manufacturers are multiples of 0.5L to maximize power while staying in the lowest tax bracket possible.

Brilliant post, amazing insight. Thanks for sharing.

Rhambler

3.0l would have made way more sense and the only reason I think they chose 3.5l is because they think they don't need a 4.0l V8 and hence why the 4.0l rumors are all hogwash imo. This 3.5l is Toyota's answer to V8 and poor one at that. Thinking some slow, low revving, high torque charade of an engine will makeup for a V8 is laughable.

This thing will not perform like a TT V8.

Your leaps of logic are something else -- despite multiple news sources reporting that the TT V8 is real, you think it's hogwash. You then criticize Lexus for your assumption that there's no TT 4.0 V8. Talk about a straw man argument.

Seeing is believing, so until it's formally announced, it's rumors.

I do think they need a V8tt, but on the other hand, I also believe this 3.5l V6tt is Toyota's stand in as this engine was supposedly seen testing and benchmarking against Audi A8 V8, or at least that's what the pictures showed.

3.5 and 4.0 make no sense from an engineering perspective. Nothing can be shared or similarly designed.

However, a 3.0 and 4.0 from a V6 to a V8 can in regards to per cylinder displacement (e.g., valve sizes, fuel injection etc.).

That's why I said that and that's why most other manufacturers are going that route and that's why I believe Toyota 4.0 V8 is a pipe dream.

Rhambler

Seeing is believing, so until it's formally announced, it's rumors.

I do think they need a V8tt, but on the other hand, I also believe this 3.5l V6tt is Toyota's stand in as this engine was supposedly seen testing and benchmarking against Audi A8 V8, or at least that's what the pictures showed.

3.5 and 4.0 makes no sense from an engineering perspective. Nothing can be shared or similarly designed.

However, a 3.0 and 4.0 from a V6 to a V8 can in regards to per cylinder displacement (e.g., valve sizes, fuel injection etc.).

That's why I said that and that's why most other manufacturers are going that route and that's why I believe Toyota 4.0 V8 is a pipe dream.

You sir are something else. But everybody have a right to their opinion. With that been said, even if there are no rumors about a v8 engine from Toyota/Lexus anybody should be able to figure it out that at some point there is going to be a V8 for the LS and all other F cars. Why? because its common sense.
1.) One of the thing lexus is well respected for its their V8 engine, so am not surprised they are taking there time to perfect their next V8 engine.
2.) All the cars Lexus competes with all have a V8 engine. Merc, BMW, Audi, Porsche. So you really think Lexus is so stupid they wont offer a V8?
3.) Even lexus greatest threat as far has price economy Genesis has a V8 engine. So again do you really think Lexus is so stupid they wont offer a V8?

What if Lexus' "V8" will be a V6TT+Hybrid? Or a 5l NA V8 based on 2.5l DF + Hybrid?

Rhambler

The 3.5 liter isn't high revving comparatively speaking. Look at the redline in some photos that show it. The massively under square design is apparent, which are typically found in boats more so than cars. They're really not known for performance.

It seems that you have mistaken the Dynamic Force engines for regular undersquare engines. But they aren't. Dynamic Force is a piece of engineering marvel since it combines so many favorable chracteristics into one package without the usual compromise.

Usually an undersquare engine trades low end torque for high rpm, which means less specific power (hp/L) but better efficiency and driveability in normal driving conditions. That's why they are not known for performance. The GR and UR series were optimised for high specific power (first on the market to have more than 80hp/L), therefore they are both heavily oversquare to squeeze out as much rpm as possible. Do note here the discussion is about civilian engines without exotic internals: sports car engines can rev over 8000rpm because of forged components that are impractical to produce on a massive scale.

Dynamic Force does not have this compromise. The A25A-FKS has a bore of 87.5mm and a stroke of 103.4mm (for a bore/stroke ratio of 0.846). It almost looks like a truck engine, but it is nothing like a truck engine. The peak power is 205hp@6600rpm, and the peak torque is 250Nm@5000rpm. 82hp/L on such an undersquare design is very impressive, especially considering it does so while achieving more than 40% thermodynamic efficiency. Usually manufacturers set the red line at 200rpm above peak power, so this engine can rev up to 6800rpm. There simply aren't many truck engines that can rev this high. And you also have to consider with such a long stroke the mean piston velocity is 23.4 m/s, which is in the realm of most performance engines out there, yet the A25A does not use forged internals. 82hp/L, 40% thermal efficiency, 23.4m/s mean piston speed with regular internals, you cannot find ANY engine in the entire industry that can do all these things at once.

But you may ask, if it's so undersquare, why is torque so low? That's VVT-iW at work. At low rpm the engine operates in Atkinson mode so torque is very poor, but the undersquare design mitigates that to some extent. If you examine the full torque curve of the A25A you will also notice there is a significant torque dip during Atkinson-Otto cycle transition. This is where the complexity of this engine stops. The perfect solution here is to use continuous variable valve lift to smooth out that dip, and TMC does have that technology (Valvematic). But maybe it's not worth the added complexity and reliability concerns. Still the torque curve is way better than the previous 2AR-FE/FSE engines. The lack of low end torque can be easily rectified by turbocharging or hybridzation, so no concerns for performance cars.

I don't know. Is Toyota stupid? I agree they need one, but the bigger question is will there be one?

Rumors are just that: rumors.

The fact that Lexus had almost a decade to develop a V8 for the new LS and yet what do we see upon the introduction of the new LS? A 3.5l V6, that was caught testing against competitor's V8s.

Frankly those facts, real facts, gives more hints to their intentions then any rumors.

bogglo

You sir are something else. But everybody have a right to their opinion. With that been said, even if there are no rumors about a v8 engine from Toyota/Lexus anybody should be able to figure it out that at some point there is going to be a V8 for the LS and all other F cars. Why? because its common sense.
1.) One of the thing lexus is well respected for its their V8 engine, so am not surprised they are taking there time to perfect their next V8 engine.
2.) All the cars Lexus competes with all have a V8 engine. Merc, BMW, Audi, Porsche. So you really think Lexus is so stupid they wont offer a V8?
3.) Even lexus greatest threat as far has price economy Genesis has a V8 engine. So again do you really think Lexus is so stupid they wont offer a V8?

Keeping fingers crossed!

ssun30

It seems that you have mistaken the Dynamic Force engines for regular undersquare engines. But they aren't. Dynamic Force is a piece of engineering marvel since it combines so many favorable chracteristics into one package without the usual compromise.

Usually an undersquare engine trades low end torque for high rpm, which means less specific power (hp/L) but better efficiency and driveability in normal driving conditions. That's why they are not known for performance. The GR and UR series were optimised for high specific power (first on the market to have more than 80hp/L), therefore they are both heavily oversquare to squeeze out as much rpm as possible. Do note here the discussion is about civilian engines without exotic internals: sports car engines can rev over 8000rpm because of forged components that are impractical to produce on a massive scale.

Dynamic Force does not have this compromise. The A25A-FKS has a bore of 87.5mm and a stroke of 103.4mm (for a bore/stroke ratio of 0.846). It almost looks like a truck engine, but it is nothing like a truck engine. The peak power is 205hp@6600rpm, and the peak torque is 250Nm@5000rpm. 82hp/L on such an undersquare design is very impressive, especially considering it does so while achieving more than 40% thermodynamic efficiency. Usually manufacturers set the red line at 200rpm above peak power, so this engine can rev up to 6800rpm. There simply aren't many truck engines that can rev this high. And you also have to consider with such a long stroke the mean piston velocity is 23.4 m/s, which is in the realm of most performance engines out there, yet the A25A does not use forged internals. 82hp/L, 40% thermal efficiency, 23.4m/s mean piston speed with regular internals, you cannot find ANY engine in the entire industry that can do all these things at once.

But you may ask, if it's so undersquare, why is torque so low? That's VVT-iW at work. At low rpm the engine operates in Atkinson mode so torque is very poor, but the undersquare design mitigates that to some extent. If you examine the full torque curve of the A25A you will also notice there is a significant torque dip during Atkinson-Otto cycle transition. This is where the complexity of this engine stops. The perfect solution here is to use continuous variable valve lift to smooth out that dip, and TMC does have that technology (Valvematic). But maybe it's not worth the added complexity and reliability concerns. Still the torque curve is way better than the previous 2AR-FE/FSE engines. The lack of low end torque can be easily rectified by turbocharging or hybridzation, so no concerns for performance cars.

Excellent post. Would just like to add, as far as I know, there are no reliability concerns with Valvematic, as it was designed to be a very reliable electrically-controlled system. Also for the A25A, the Atkinson-Otto transition results in not so much a torque dip, but more of a torque lull. Low-end torque up to about 2400 rpm is much better than the previous AR generation. The Atkinson-Otto lull occurs between 2400 or so to about 3200 rpm, and then torque continues to increase. Even so, torque remains higher than the AR predecessor, and does not drop, but only stagnates. Proper transmission gearing and spacing can also help somewhat with this torque lull.

ssun30

There are good reasons for choosing 3.5L and 4.0L. But not what you are thinking of. The Dynamic Force engines are highly undersquare (~0.8 bore/stroke ratio) while the GR/UR series are oversquare. In that sense the block needs to be completely redesigned. Also the internals need much better metallurgy to cope with the extra stress caused by a long stroke. Dynamic Force engines do not trade rpm for stroke, instead they are both high revving and long stroke. The combustion chamber are also completely redesigned to promote turbulent flow. They are also the first family of engines to combine the entire technology package Toyota has developed in the past decade, sans Valvematic. They left that alone since many Dynamic Force engines are designed with turbocharging in mind, which doesn't benefit from variable valve lift as much as NA.

The reason to choose 3.5L and 4.0L is because of taxes. In Japan and China, Toyota's two major markets, cars are taxed based on engine displacement, in 500cc increments starting from 999cc. 3.5 and 4.0 are two "sweetspots" for two respective markets since going up (3.6/4.2, for example) in displacement will result in significantly more tax burden for buyers. That's why you don't see intermediate displacements like 1.8, 2.4, 3.2, or 4.4 in these markets because they just don't make any sense. All new engines designed after 2012 by major manufacturers are multiples of 0.5L to maximize power while staying in the lowest tax bracket possible.

I've missed out that 3.5 is Skyactive/Dynamic Force engine. I was aware of new 2.5 in Camry to be the one but they ever said anything about 3.5 V6. If it is indeed true than it has to be a complete new engine block and Skyactive like technology is really good for turbocharging or supercharging as it can boost performance and especially torque to diesel like levels compared to displacement. Let's wait for V8 to see how that turns out.