Rendered: The Production Lexus LF-1 Limitless Crossover

Production Lexus LF-1 Crossover Coming in 2021?

As reported by Mag-X.

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Is it just me or the LT 1 crossover rendering look better than the Range Rover Velar.

wow
I think it will be late for the game if the date is correct

Lexus needs a RWD CUV maybe '20 or even'19

maiaramdan

wow
I think it will be late for the game if the date is correct

Lexus needs a RWD CUV maybe '20 or even'19

Unfortunately they have way too many projects at hand already. Feel sorry for the engineers; I heard from one of their drivetrain engineers that they have been working 160 hours/month overtimes for over a year.

ssun30

Unfortunately they have way too many projects at hand already. Feel sorry for the engineers; I heard from one of their drivetrain engineers that they have been working 160 hours/month overtimes for over a year.

They've had the whole last decade to make a new engine. Why so much overtime now that they're already late?

@Gecko
That's exactly my thinking, Lexus is not established in the previous 2 years to get that load. They are nearly 30 years now

Gecko

They've had the whole last decade to make a new engine. Why so much overtime now that they're already late?

There are four things to consider here:
1) Japanese corporate culture. They already have 60-hour working week plus on average 40-hour overtime per month during 'easy' years.
2) The engineer in question is an engine calibration engineer, which is easily the most demanding automotive job except for maybe test engineers. This is because they need to recalibrate even the same engine for every car it is equipped on. That means an IS300 has a different ECU software compared to a NX300. Setting up and running these tests take enormous amount of engineering time. TMC is in full cost-cutting mode these days and refuse to add more equipment and manpower to run more parallel jobs.
The design and mechanical guys actually have a much easier time. The design and prototyping phases of the engine are pretty straight forward.
3) TNGA pushed way too many projects back. Remember the 5LS was supposed to appear three years ago? Most of the current Lexus lineup are interim gap fillers before the complete overhaul to TNGA. That's why they didn't even bother with BoF redesigns. TNGA is trading temporary competitiveness for long-term gains, and the interim years wasn't really bad for TMC as a whole. Unfortunately that came at a painful cost of the Lexus division's sedan business.
4) They are working on 2025 engines today. Back in 2006 and 2007, the GR series was so far ahead of time that even today it remains relevant. That's because the engine was conceived and component-tested since early 90s. Dynamic Force 1.0 was two years late because of TNGA delaying its deployment, but 2.0 is on track.

Why 2021? It looks production ready and based on the new LS everything should be in place.

Disappointed to read the Drive review on the LS Hybrid however the author does give some praise and he is certainly not alone in his criticism of the infotainment system or the CVT. Why do Lexus not fix this every road test complains about these items - difficult to understand the reluctance of Lexus to fix these two aggravating points which come up repeatedly.

Is someone's ego at play here - fix them please.

^I think part of it is that the LS is only about 4 months into launch, so they might not have had a chance to really react yet. If they are going to change anything substantial, it would probably have to be for the 2019 model year. Knowing Lexus, there probably won't be any changes until the refresh around 2021... but this is the LS, so maybe they will want to make moves sooner rather than later.

It sounds like the transmission needs an ECU reflash, at the very least. That actually is a very easy update that can be made on vehicles during PDI at the dealership, and the ones that have already been sold can be updated at their first oil change.

Anyway, back to LF-1...

With Lexus and quality things simply take time....

I think the main reason they're taking so long is because they have no idea wtf to name the production model :joy::joy:

It is because they are figuring out how to put a new infotainment system in this SUV and it won't be ready or really ready until that year . Another model with the same stuff , not happening . Especially a well received model . It should be earlier like 2020 January. There too many new models coming by then .

Let me sum all the logical ideas so far

1- the naming: will it be "GX or LX" successor or will it come with totally new naming

2- the new models: in the next 2 to 3 years Lexus will renew all it's sedan lineup also the RC started with the LS previous year and ES this year and maybe the IS next year with NX may match 2020 so as the RC maybe even a new generation GS as the rumored 4D coupe

3- waiting a new generation technologies to finalize adding Android Auto & Apple Carplay , new infotainment and so on

4- what will happen to the BOF SUVs in the lineup will they get a next generation both or one of them

The infotainment needs a whole revamp from top to bottom . It is one of the worst one on market , when I drive my car , I can’t look for restaurants while on the highway. One wrong move and you turn of the navigation. The LF-1 should be an addition to the line up in between the LX and GX nothing should be killed off . Maybe the name of it should be KX and call it a day .

@GTG
I think it will be GX successor better fit the sporty side
Note that the LF-X was supposed also to be a GX as sporty RWD based unibody CUV which this LF-1 fit well, maybe even the rumored TX, but until now no one out of Lexus knows what they will do with the GX, deleted it completely or give it a new BOF generation based on the next Prado or completely overhauled it with a production model of this LF-1 concept

The GX is a great suv , replacement of something that has its own market and let’s not forget reliability, may not happen . All people want things that don’t break and having five suv’s To sell is always better than four . Benz has 8 , BMW has 7 , Audi has 3 and they have another 3 on the way . Let’s see even if not continued in the US where the market is SUV first ,second, third , and on it will sell in some other part of the world . You could be right but at the rate SUV are going , the car with four doors may fade in many many years to come in big markets .

@GTG
We are just taking assumptions, but there was a lot of rumors pre the last GX facelift that it will be discountined

And maybe the next Prado will be offered in NA beside the next 4 Runner on the new TNGA - BOF derivative as one of them luxurious (Prado) and the other true off roader (4-Runner)

I heard the same news just like you . The LF-1 would be great addition to the line up . The sales for February for the GX is up about over 200 and something units thus far . The GX is more affordable on a lease as well as a finance, and once it sells over or break even for the year it will be staying . Plus it give a different dimension to the market . The LF-1 would be the sporty to the LX , like the Rx is to the GX . But we will see man . Great chat man .

There is a very high possibility of consolidation of Prado and 4Runner, seeing how they went for a single international model with the Camry. Then a new GX based on this common BoF SUV could see significant cost reduction.

GX is becoming something they couldn't easily let go; sales speak for themselves. If anything, the BoF LX needs to make way for the Unibody LF-1. I've always believed the LF-1 will become the new LX. The point is Lexus could not leave a hole between RX and LX because every crossover segment counts (unlike the sedan market where they can leave a hole between ES and LS).

ssun30

There is a very high possibility of consolidation of Prado and 4Runner, seeing how they went for a single international model with the Camry. Then a new GX based on this common BoF SUV could see significant cost reduction.

GX is becoming something they couldn't easily let go; sales speak for themselves. If anything, the BoF LX needs to make way for the Unibody LF-1. I've always believed the LF-1 will become the new LX. The point is Lexus could not leave a hole between RX and LX because every crossover segment counts (unlike the sedan market where they can leave a hole between ES and LS).

Toyota has improved its interior quality/comfort/design, that an LX version of the Land Cruiser has not much more to offer in terms of differentiation, other than Lexus design, which is not necessarily more luxurious or better. So if the body-on-frame SUV LX is replaced by a uni-body CUV LS, there is no loss, on the contrary the LX will really have more comfort and luxury to offer than the Land Cruiser.

ssun30

There is a very high possibility of consolidation of Prado and 4Runner, seeing how they went for a single international model with the Camry. Then a new GX based on this common BoF SUV could see significant cost reduction.

GX is becoming something they couldn't easily let go; sales speak for themselves. If anything, the BoF LX needs to make way for the Unibody LF-1. I've always believed the LF-1 will become the new LX. The point is Lexus could not leave a hole between RX and LX because every crossover segment counts (unlike the sedan market where they can leave a hole between ES and LS).

LF-1 will not ever replace LX. Lexus made it clear that this was an addition to their flagship portfolio alongside LS, LX, LC.

Lexus stated recently that long term, the LX is the one model that will remain BOF - linked to Land Cruiser as it has always been. In many global markets, like the Middle East and others, LX is the #1 selling Lexus model. LX outsells the LS worldwide - it is one of the most important global models, especially as SUV craze continues. LX's place as the Lexus flagship is becoming even more important.

Totally agree about Prado, 4Runner and GX consolidating to one model - only makes sense.

Levi

Toyota has improved its interior quality/comfort/design, that an LX version of the Land Cruiser has not much more to offer in terms of differentiation, other than Lexus design, which is not necessarily more luxurious or better. So if the body-on-frame SUV LX is replaced by a uni-body CUV LS, there is no loss, on the contrary the LX will really have more comfort and luxury to offer than the Land Cruiser.

Have you been in both recently? There is a massive difference between Land Cruiser and LX interior - massive. If anything, Land Cruiser doesn't quite feel right for it's $85k price point, but LX feels every bit of $90k.

Gecko

Lexus stated recently that long term, the LX is the one model that will remain BOF - linked to Land Cruiser as it has always been.

What would be the differentiation between the LX and LF-1, other than BOF vs unibody, which could justify their decision to split the luxury crossover market between two models?

Sure the luxury SUV segment has a capacity of 2k units per month (US numbers only) for a competent carmaker, using the GLS as a reference point. Since these are very high margin products, the BOF LX only needs like 500 monthly to remain a profitable program (as it is now) with the rest 1500 coming from the LF-1. The market is there for a BOF LX; it is even more justifiable than the LS. You are entirely right about that.

But would the bean counters at Aichi argue that they could do the same by making the LF-1 only? Remember those guys can terminate programs that Lexus itself really wants unless Akio steps in. As long as the LX name is carried over, the big oil people in Middle East and Russia will keep buying it. Just like their american counterparts, they don't get their LX dirty either. They have fancier toys to play with if they do off-roading at all.

Gecko

Have you been in both recently? There is a massive difference between Land Cruiser and LX interior - massive. If anything, Land Cruiser doesn't quite feel right for it's $85k price point, but LX feels every bit of $90k.

This. I need to check on the LX some day. Still does not justify a ¥100k premium over even the limited edition LC, but that's light-years ahead of the more expensive BMW X5 xDrive 50i and GLS450.

ssun30

What would be the differentiation between the LX and LF-1, other than BOF vs unibody, which could justify their decision to split the luxury crossover market between two models?

But would the bean counters at Aichi argue that they could do the same by making the LF-1 only? Remember those guys can terminate programs that Lexus itself really wants unless Akio steps in. As long as the LX name is carried over, the big oil people in Middle East and Russia will keep buying it. Just like their american counterparts, they don't get their LX dirty either. They have fancier toys to play with if they do off-roading at all.

Part of what makes LX and GX so attractive is that they are insanely profitable because they use 80% Land Cruiser 200 and Land Cruiser Prado hardware with wood and leather added - Lexus has talked candidly about this. There is no way a GA-L based CUV can have such hefty margins at this point. Lexus will not just walk away from that profit. There are three generations of LX heritage as well, and completely changing it to a two row, high performance CUV would be total strategy shift and major turnoff for buyers. The people who buy LXs are quite like the people who buy Land Cruisers - they buy them because they know how dependable they are, they drive them for 12 years, put 150-200k miles on them, and then turn it over to their children or grand children.

LF-1's competitive set is Cayenne, Range Rover Sport, maybe the X5. LX competitive set is the Escalade and QX80, and on the outer edges, Mercedes GLS and Range Rover. These are two totally different buyer groups, which is why Lexus talked about positioning LF-1 alongside the LX instead of replacing it. Lexus is very intentional with their words in press releases for flagship vehicles.

I think you could have made the "Is it really worth it?" argument with the GX because the RX is so dominant, but the LX is on another level entirely. And to your first point, BOF vs unibody is a very big deal that fundamentally changes almost everything about the vehicle - packaging, weight, driving dynamics, powertrain options, design, etc. The people who buy LXs like the rugged, trucky, solid feeling that is provided by the BOF architecture. Keep in mind the average OTD price of an LX is around $100k, so that buyer has already passed up almost every other SUV in the market short of ultra lux and exotic brands... They know what they want.

ssun30

GX is becoming something they couldn't easily let go; sales speak for themselves. If anything, the BoF LX needs to make way for the Unibody LF-1. I've always believed the LF-1 will become the new LX. The point is Lexus could not leave a hole between RX and LX because every crossover segment counts (unlike the sedan market where they can leave a hole between ES and LS).

Gecko

I think you could have made the "Is it really worth it?" argument with the GX because the RX is so dominant, but the LX is on another level entirely. And to your first point, BOF vs unibody is a very big deal that fundamentally changes almost everything about the vehicle - packaging, weight, driving dynamics, powertrain options, design, etc. The people who buy LXs like the rugged, trucky, solid feeling that is provided by the BOF architecture. Keep in mind the average OTD price of an LX is around $100k, so that buyer has already passed up almost every other SUV in the market short of ultra lux and exotic brands... They know what they want.

Both the LF-1 and LX are vehicles that can stand on their own without stepping on each other's toes. I believe the current high-end luxury focus of Lexus is a long-term plan that's reshaping the brand, and four separate flagships fits very well with that strategy.

@Gecko, I am honestly with Levi & ssun30
I feel the Land Cruiser is prisoned under LX shadow, if you see the history "before LX450" the Land Cruiser was always compared to the Range Rover and in case LX switches to the unibody, thist will again makes the Land Cruiser enters the Top lux. Market noting that until the previous LX it was not a Lexus and sold in Japan under Toyota Land Cruiser Cygnus


Regarding the GX, Prado, 4-Runner, Fortuner, Innova, Tacoma, Hi-Lux

This maybe the most profitable chassis, Toyota already is working in a BOF based on the new TNGA and we may see all of them got renewed and SUV is not the same case as the sedan, so if they dropped the international Camry and maybe dropping the international next Corolla, that not meant that they will drop also either Prado or 4-Runner, I see it the 180 degrees situation, as a Toyota executive said that they are in the 90th where you can put more than one car in the same category.

Gecko

Have you been in both recently? There is a massive difference between Land Cruiser and LX interior - massive. If anything, Land Cruiser doesn't quite feel right for it's $85k price point, but LX feels every bit of $90k.

That is not very fair. Take the pre-facelift Land Cruiser top spec and the pre-facelift LX, and the difference is almost nothing. The last facelift of the LX is also way more extensive than what the last Land Cruiser got. The LX has every exterior panel except doors and roof, new. Also in addition to a completely new dashboard with new control buttons, it has new door interior panels. Look at the difference between Land Cruiser GX (UN, military, low-spec,...) and top spec, the difference is huge.

Your price justification also shows that the margin of the LX is not necessarily higher, if it can justify its price but not the Land Cruiser. Imagine how overpriced a Land Cruiser GX is! Or the Land Cruiser 70 for that matter.

Gecko

The people who buy LXs like the rugged, trucky, solid feeling that is provided by the BOF architecture. Keep in mind the average OTD price of an LX is around $100k, so that buyer has already passed up almost every other SUV in the market short of ultra lux and exotic brands... They know what they want.

This is a great point. If lux-SUV buyers base their purchase decisions purely on comfort, handling, or speed, then the LX should have no chance since it does a lot of things worse than cheaper unibody competitors. I guess my 'anti-LX' mentality is because of my inability to comprehend the thought process of LX buyers. Also the exorbitant price they charge for the LX570 in China didn't help my perceptions of it: the base trim is ¥100k ($15k) more expensive than a LS500h Executive or LC500h Structural Blue Limited Edition.

Here's an interesting perspective from my dealership friend on the ridiculous profitability of the LX570. Here in China a lot of the LX570 buyers actually cross-shop the truck with the LS600hL. Strange. These people have already determined that they don't want a RR or GLS, nor a S-Class or 7-Series. These are the top elite customers of the shop, and are willing to pay a big premium for the best they can offer. The LS600hL was very short on supply towards the end of production so LX570 was the only flagship that could be delivered regularly. While the official MSRP of the LX570 is ¥1.4M (USD 230k), the actual OTD price is usually north of ¥1.8M (USD 285k) and some are willing to go over 2M. Even at that price point it is still cheaper than the LS600hL, or a GLS500, or a X5 XDrive 50i though these people really don't care. They buy the LX because it is unique, and is the best Lexus there is. It stays true today: Lexus dealers already need to offer deals on the LS500h to sell them, while the LX still carries a mark-up (although at a more reasonable scale now).

So selling one LX570 here is equivalent to selling fifty super low margin ES200s, and salespeople get a hefty commission for the job. I find the LX very comparable to the Toyota Alphard, which too has ridiculous profitability due to uniqueness. Competitors could never convince the top executives to sit in their luxury minivans. These people don't want cargo haulers with fancy leather chairs; they want a purpose-built VIP transport with a silky-smooth V6 and luxury car suspension.

So in the end, the LX is for those who know exactly what they want. The LF-1 is for the more numerous generic luxury buyers.

Thanks @ssun30, I wasn't familiar with the Alphard since it's not offered in the US. I can totally see the attraction of one in a higher-lux trim in a place where it's normal not to drive the car yourself like China. Or they could make a taller decontented version and go after whoever makes the Sprinter this year (I swear it's got a different badge every year).

Ironically we still waiting any BOF SUVs or Trucks based on the new TNGA

I think or we can say I hope they will be the next Tundra / Seqouia combo

By the way
Did anyone see the new 2018 Corolla hatch? , It resemble a lot of LF-Ch lines, especially in the rear even with the rear lights, which as if Toyota made it clear RIP Lexus compact hatch