Will Genesis hurt Lexus?

[mordecai]

Cross stitched leather catches people’s eyes, but I personally don’t see anything above-average in its class in the G70 interior. The Mazda3 has a similar level interior. With that said, both are obviously better than the 7-year old IS interior.

The sad thing is that this is the best looking, most cohesive Lexus exterior design outside of the LC. It looks STUNNING. But poor effort on under the skin upgrades and minimal interior upgrades. Regardless of that, I think the new styling will catch people’s eyes and the IS should see a healthy sales rise.

I hope Lexus will use this IS design as a basis for the true next-gen IS. This IS is the purest expression of the design language Lexus brought out with the LF-Gh back in 2011. It’s sad that it’s only being realized almost 10 years later.

 

[internalaudit]

I'm no Hyundai fanboy, but Genesis also:
- Has a V8 in their flagship sedan
- Has an all-new midsize RWD performance luxury sedan
- Is dropping a RWD performance CUV
- Has a compact sedan with a 365hp turbo V6 and an interior like this:

... so It's not that Genesis CAN do it -- they already have, and we're hoping Lexus catches up.

Somehow (I didn't check Bentley's logo), I think the logo is like Bentley's (from my impression) and usually it's not flattering to be a rip off lol.

Also, somehow the way the dashboard layout is done, it doesn't scream high-end to me. Not sure why, really, because a lot praises the interior.

Also many of us go back to the Hyundai Pony or time when Hyundai was 10-20% cheaper than a BBA or even a Honda/Toyota and not able to swallow the premium being asked. It's not like Apple who controls its entire ecosystem and leave loyalist no choice but to stick with the brand.

I've said time and time again to Tesla cultist/fan boys that Tesla is no Apple lol. I have perused the Taycanforums threads and it was very easy for people to switch to a Taycan, as long as they can afford it. Only fan boys are going to keep buying Tesla when the time comes there are a lot more compelling alternatives, with better build quality and reliability outside the power train (Tesla battery is Panasonic anyway).

 

[Gecko]

@CRSKTN I do understand your point. We know the Korean approach to manufacturing is very aggressive and they are even willing to cut corners in certain areas to give the appearance of winning. Yes, it will take some time before we know if it is working. But Hyundai is a more mature company now than they were a decade ago, and they have the desire to throw big bucks into a luxury brand to make it work. After 20 years in a leadership position - and after having proven themselves and done the hard work - Lexus is delivering a product that is inferior to Hyundai. Whether that's long term, short term, Korean or Japanese, it simply is the case right now. You and I may want to sit it out for a few more years to watch Genesis take shape, but right now, their product is more appealing than Lexus' on many fronts.

 

[CRSKTN]

@CRSKTN I do understand your point. We know the Korean approach to manufacturing is very aggressive and they are even willing to cut corners in certain areas to give the appearance of winning. Yes, it will take some time before we know if it is working. But Hyundai is a more mature company now than they were a decade ago, and they have the desire to throw big bucks into a luxury brand to make it work. After 20 years in a leadership position - and after having proven themselves and done the hard work - Lexus is delivering a product that is inferior to Hyundai. Whether that's long term, short term, Korean or Japanese, it simply is the case right now. You and I may want to sit it out for a few more years to watch Genesis take shape, but right now, their product is more appealing than Lexus' on many fronts.

I see your point, too, but I will say I think your opinion of Genesis products are higher than mine. The ones i've interacted with look good from a distance, but at least for me interacting with them was disappointing. I think the exterior styling is great, but between the Bentley-esque logo and lack of a comparable dealer network/service, i don't know if i can agree about genesis putting out a superior product.

 

[spwolf]

After 20 years in a leadership position - and after having proven themselves and done the hard work - Lexus is delivering a product that is inferior to Hyundai. Whether that's long term, short term, Korean or Japanese, it simply is the case right now. You and I may want to sit it out for a few more years to watch Genesis take shape, but right now, their product is more appealing than Lexus' on many fronts.

so why is Genesis failing so terribly? Or do you think they invested billions upon billions to sell 20k vehicles a year in their 4th year on the market?

Extremely old Q50 outsells whole Genesis - 3 vehicle brand, which is obviously a lot more appealing.

Anyway, lets discuss Genesis in some other thread, it seems pointless here.

 

[Gecko]

It is all by the forum enthusiast book, and then they have 1500 sales per month, despite 3 models and generous incentives. So what are they doing terribly wrong and what is Lexus doing terribly right?

While no brand is currently affected by Genesis sales, even if it increases, Lexus will likely be least affected of them all simply because as you mention, it currently does not target the same buyer.

Some is enthusiast-centric, some is not. Go to a Lexus dealer and ask them what the #1 complaint is about the LS: people don't like not having a V8. They come to expect the smoothness of a Lexus V8 and the car doesn't have it. That isn't enthusiasts talking - that is people with $85k who are not buying the LS because it comes with a V6. Genesis has one.

Talk to people returning leased RXs and GXs asking why Lexus doesn't have something more powerful or more exciting. To them, something like GV80 is the right type of product. Genesis has that and Lexus does not.

G70 is the wrong car at the wrong time, no way around that. A compact SUV would have been much better. But if Hyundai is investing for the long term and is starting to get the product mix right, they stand to do well.

 

[Gecko]

so why is Genesis failing so terribly? Or do you think they invested billions upon billions to sell 20k vehicles a year in their 4th year on the market?

Extremely old Q50 outsells whole Genesis - 3 vehicle brand, which is obviously a lot more appealing.

Anyway, lets discuss Genesis in some other thread, it seems pointless here.

Very simple. They have had an all-sedan lineup in a market that has turned away from sedans. That is now about to change.

But yes, back to IS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

G70 is the wrong car at the wrong time, no way around that. A compact SUV would have been much better. But if Hyundai is investing for the long term and is starting to get the product mix right, they stand to do well.

The G70 is also the only Genesis model getting major marketing in the US, which strikes me as weird given the state of the market. And they do need to fix the Bentley ripoff logo, it makes the whole brand feel cheap and tawdry.

 

[internalaudit]

Oh, thanks for confirming they ripped off Bentley lol!

I didn't bother checking haha.

Maybe they should use Phil Collins' face as their logo or these:

Genesis (band)

Designed by Paul Whitehead, this logo first appeared on the album cover for Nursery Cryme (1971) and was re-used for the subsequent album, Foxtrot (1972). A variation with inverted colors and purple hues appeared on Genesis Live (1973). Although it was not used on any Genesis album after 1973...

logos.fandom.com

 

[joepac]

Oh, thanks for confirming they ripped off Bentley lol!

I didn't bother checking haha.

Maybe they should use Phil Collins' face as their logo or these:

Genesis (band)

Designed by Paul Whitehead, this logo first appeared on the album cover for Nursery Cryme (1971) and was re-used for the subsequent album, Foxtrot (1972). A variation with inverted colors and purple hues appeared on Genesis Live (1973). Although it was not used on any Genesis album after 1973...

logos.fandom.com

Either Bentley... Or Mini 😂 😂 😂

 

[Sulu]

I'm no Hyundai fanboy, but Genesis also:
- Has a V8 in their flagship sedan
- Has an all-new midsize RWD performance luxury sedan
- Is dropping a RWD performance CUV
- Has a compact sedan with a 365hp turbo V6 and an interior like this:

... so It's not that Genesis CAN do it -- they already have, and we're hoping Lexus catches up.

Genesis is still following the tried-and-true automotive brand startup handbook, the same handbook that Toyota followed 50+ years ago and Lexus followed 30 years ago; and the same handbook that Genesis' parent Hyundai followed 30+ years ago. It has to prove that it is worthy of a luxury brand and be a true competitor to Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jaguar and Lexus, the established luxury brands.

To prove itself and make its vehicles visible to prospective buyers, it has to try to offer more of what it believes that buyers are looking for, all at prices that beat its competitors. Lexus did the same thing 30 years ago when it first came to market.

So Genesis has to offer a V8 in their flagship (even as its competitors are starting to do away with that) because that is what purists believe that a luxury brand must have; and it has to offer RWD vehicles across its lineup because that is what purists believe that luxury vehicles must have. (Purists would blame the lack of a V8-powered RWD large sedan for the failure of the Acura RLX and the failure of the brand itself.)

Genesis also is offering styling and logos that may be confused with its competitors, to attract the interest and attention of people who do not yet know what Genesis is.

Lexus did this also when it was a startup 30 years ago. It offered value by offering more of what its management believed its buyers would want, at prices that beat its competitors. Did Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi and Jaguar believe they had to "catch up" to Lexus? I would say yes and no, but largely no. What those established luxury brands now offer is little different from what they offered 30 years ago.

So, does Lexus now have to catch up to Genesis?

If you answer yes, you are admitting that Lexus is still, even after 30 years, an immature, not-yet-established luxury brand; you are admitting that Lexus is still (like Genesis) a "me-too!" brand.

If, however, you answer no, you are admitting that Lexus is now a mature and established luxury brand that has the courage to stand up for itself and offer its own, unique lineup of vehicles.

 

[LexsCTJill]

Genesis is still following the tried-and-true automotive brand startup handbook, the same handbook that Toyota followed 50+ years ago and Lexus followed 30 years ago; and the same handbook that Genesis' parent Hyundai followed 30+ years ago. It has to prove that it is worthy of a luxury brand and be a true competitor to Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jaguar and Lexus, the established luxury brands.

To prove itself and make its vehicles visible to prospective buyers, it has to try to offer more of what it believes that buyers are looking for, all at prices that beat its competitors. Lexus did the same thing 30 years ago when it first came to market.

So Genesis has to offer a V8 in their flagship (even as its competitors are starting to do away with that) because that is what purists believe that a luxury brand must have; and it has to offer RWD vehicles across its lineup because that is what purists believe that luxury vehicles must have. (Purists would blame the lack of a V8-powered RWD large sedan for the failure of the Acura RLX and the failure of the brand itself.)

Genesis also is offering styling and logos that may be confused with its competitors, to attract the interest and attention of people who do not yet know what Genesis is.

Lexus did this also when it was a startup 30 years ago. It offered value by offering more of what its management believed its buyers would want, at prices that beat its competitors. Did Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi and Jaguar believe they had to "catch up" to Lexus? I would say yes and no, but largely no. What those established luxury brands now offer is little different from what they offered 30 years ago.

So, does Lexus now have to catch up to Genesis?

If you answer yes, you are admitting that Lexus is still, even after 30 years, an immature, not-yet-established luxury brand; you are admitting that Lexus is still (like Genesis) a "me-too!" brand.

If, however, you answer no, you are admitting that Lexus is now a mature and established luxury brand that has the courage to stand up for itself and offer its own, unique lineup of vehicles.

Wow. What an inspiring post. Sulu, you nailed it.

 

[LexsCTJill]

I would firmly say Genesis is failing or has failed. 5 years now under the standalone brand. They have gone nowhere.

 

[zeusus]

I'm no Hyundai fanboy, but Genesis also:
- Has a V8 in their flagship sedan
- Has an all-new midsize RWD performance luxury sedan
- Is dropping a RWD performance CUV
- Has a compact sedan with a 365hp turbo V6 and an interior like this:

... so It's not that Genesis CAN do it -- they already have, and we're hoping Lexus catches up.

You can't have it any more backwards.

Your post is the exact reason why BMW and MB can sell with lower reliability and interior quality, than Lexus, while Lexus provides value contrasted to those brands, more bang for the buck. Since the 1LS, Lexus has since moved up in brand power and consumer demand while somebody takes their previous place, which is essentially just scraps for Infiniti, Genesis, Acura, and Cadillac to fight over. It is absolutely no question that while Lexus is not MB, it has its own base and foundation and is culturally accepted as a luxury brand, despite the disagreements of some hardcore enthusiasts.

What Genesis is doing now is an investment, likely razor thin margins or taking losses while they try to establish their foundation, which hasn't really been working so far but in all fairness, they need more time.

Lexus now has sustainable margins with global volume growth. There is no way they are cutting those margins to fulfill the dreams of fanboys who may not even buy the car they are clamoring loudest for. V8, TT, and never-ending expectations of horsepower figures. Some of you guys will just never be satisfied. I don't even know if thats being an enthusiast or an eternal pessimist. Maybe the new term for you all should be "Lexus Karens".

So, does Lexus now have to catch up to Genesis?

If you answer yes, you are admitting that Lexus is still, even after 30 years, an immature, not-yet-established luxury brand; you are admitting that Lexus is still (like Genesis) a "me-too!" brand.

If, however, you answer no, you are admitting that Lexus is now a mature and established luxury brand that has the courage to stand up for itself and offer its own, unique lineup of vehicles.

Don't know about you guys but I'm an unabashed NO, even before reading the options presented. I don't want Lexus me-too!'ing anybody, not Genesis, not MB, BMW, or Hollywood starlets.

 

[Levi]

I would firmly say Genesis is failing or has failed. 5 years now under the standalone brand. They have gone nowhere.

5 years with only 3 sedans, a dying market. Now with new CUVs, it is very likely to change. Infiniti and Acura CUVs are a joke for premium CUVs.

If Lexus made the RWD HPX with proper V8 and such, their sedans would sell better than now. Before halo models sold basic models, now basic models (CUV) sell halo models. See the Germans...

 

[Gecko]

Going to bump this thread up and move over some Genesis discussion from the IS thread. Interesting to take a look back at how we were talking about the brand 3 years ago.

 

[mikeavelli]

A couple things about Genesis...
1. They have hired some of the best talent from other companies. From Ferrari to Audi to Lexus.
2. Hyundai is going to invest billions in the brand. Thing will change before you know it.

Their issues now are no stand alone dealers, no SUVs and meh marketing. That is about to be fixed.

I never thought I would live in a world where Hyundai is offering a RWD car in the 5 series class and not Lexus. I never thought I would live in a world where they have a V-8 flagship but not Lexus. I never thought Hyundai and Kia would out power and offer a manual to Lexus and the IS.

Those omissions are very damaging. As someone in the industry watching what people say, the Genesis groups are full of energy and enthusiasm and see Lexus as old and out of date. Never thought I would
See the day.

So here we are with a new IS that is gorgeous. Well the G70 and stinger are lookers too. They are cheaper, faster, with arguably better interiors. Oh and they are reliable too. And they are now 3 years old and Lexus debuts a new car behind them?

I am praying there is some wake up call with new exciting innovative products soon. Cause this can’t continue.

To complicate things, the new Acura tlx is more of the same. And never would I have thought an Acura product is more interesting that a IS.

 

[internalaudit]

^ Unless of course the future is electric then most of what you mentioned related to "mechanics or technology" mean very little truth to be told. 😇

But even the Korean car makers are pushing on with BEVs, albeit in compliance quantities.

 

[spwolf]

i think thread itself is a bit wrong - should be Will Genesis compete in Luxury market?

I don't think Genesis, just like Hyundai, will target Lexus/Toyota buyers. Hyundai realized they cant do that, and Genesis did as well - they are both targeting US/EU automakers for past 5-6 years.

 

[mmcartalk]

And never would I have thought an Acura product is more interesting that a IS.

Based on a lot of your previous comments about Acura products, I didn't think you would, either LOL.
😉