Will Genesis hurt Lexus?

mikeavelli

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We been over this. Its not newer. It is a rebadge of the 2014 Genesis sedan. I guess since the Scion FR-S is now the Toyota 86 it makes it newer than the Ford Mustang? And 24k unit isn't something to brag about. The E and 5er sell way more than that.

Yes it is cheaper? Better value won't you say? Hyundai giving people want they want and for a good price and their sales go up. But that's an odd concept for Toyota to understand. A prime example is how long have people been asking for a 3rd row CUV now, or even something as simple as Apple carplay?

Lexus was great in the 90s, not so much right now IMO. I think if Toyota/Lexus doesn't listen to customers needs and wants, than they will lose market shares.

We have been over this? lol. The GS debuted in 2012 as a 2013 model. I know since I bought it in the first year.

Maybe understand sales goals a bit. The GS is not a 5/E in regards to ever being positioned as a volume sedan. The ES is. Thus Lexus set a modest target for the GS. Not every car produced has a goal to be the #1 best selling in class. NO ONE will out sell the E/5. It would be like saying the Genesis G80 is a flop since it isn't selling like a 5/E. It never will. I'm not sure of their sales target but surely its not 50 or 60k a year. No one said 24k a year was something to brag about. Maybe chill out.

Last I looked, Lexus sales worldwide were still doing well. They are still the 4th best selling luxury brand in the world. Obviously they are doing what people want still.

I completely disagree that Lexus isn't so great now. Lexus is outstanding even with some omissions. We shouldn't bring up the 1990s since Hyundai/Kia back then were producing absolute monkey crap. I know since I owned one.
 

krew

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From the sounds of people on this thread, I'm going to be lucky to be able to test drive a 5LS before Toyota goes out of business. Oh noes!

:skull:

I prefer a more balanced view of Lexus. The new LS & LC have shown us the future of Lexus is bright -- beautiful styling, new engines, strong personalities. Even so, there's so much work to be done on the rest of the lineup and Lexus seems to be struggling with the speed necessary. For example, the updated NX & IS would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce a replacement for the 2GR V6.

Honestly, I'm a little tired of brand being the main push for Lexus. I'd like to see a couple years where product is the focus. Think about it -- over the past two years, it's been the LC/IS/LS/NX. No matter how important those two flagships are, that's a slow trickle of new vehicles.
 

CIF

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:skull:

I prefer a more balanced view of Lexus. The new LS & LC have shown us the future of Lexus is bright -- beautiful styling, new engines, strong personalities. Even so, there's so much work to be done on the rest of the lineup and Lexus seems to be struggling with the speed necessary. For example, the updated NX & IS would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce a replacement for the 2GR V6.

Honestly, I'm a little tired of brand being the main push for Lexus. I'd like to see a couple years where product is the focus. Think about it -- over the past two years, it's been the LC/IS/LS/NX. No matter how important those two flagships are, that's a slow trickle of new vehicles.

Any possible information or insight as to why things are so slow? Other than known factors like increased development and testing cycles, and the big earthquake of 2011, what other factors are at play? Did the 2011 earthquake affect operations more significantly than has been revealed publicly? Or is it something else? Staff shortage at certain departments?
 

spwolf

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The G80 is outselling the GS about 2 to 1, so there's that.

Remember back in the 90s when German fanboys said Mercedes and BMW didn't have to worried about a fancy rebadge Toyota? Just saying...

G80 prices compare to ES, not GS... so G80 sales are 3x smaller than ES.

It is a failure... not sure if it leads them anywhere.
 

spwolf

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You always seem to base success of a company solely on sales, revenue, the hard numbers. But reality tends to be more complicated. In fact, Sony Ericsson (today the insignificant Sony Mobile) was a beast during the early stages of the smartphone revolution but it was already on the way to its grave since Day 1 when Apple launched the original iPhone. Changes take time, the fallen giants are usually the strongest when they start their demise.

Also, it is really, really strange that TMC has an extremely streamlined workforce among all automobile manufacturers, which is very, very unusual for a giant japanese corporation. I am inclined to believe their seemingly high efficiency and profitability are accounting tricks.

I never intended to compared the rise of korean electronics industry with Hyundai. In fact, Hyundai is in a disastrous situation where they have no answer to the SUV craze (they do now, but too late). TMC, on the other hand, is the one who started it in the first place, so no wonder it is the biggest beneficiary.

The automobile market is different from electronics in that, people do care about reliability and durability much, much more. This is why I believe TMC will never fall as miserably as Sony or Toshiba. But Lexus will suffer as its subsidiary because the premium/luxury market has more demand for "shiny gimmicky stuff" than pure reliability.

Well, it does not matter what you believe or not, obviously they are very profitable company - you can believe it is all a conspiracy and that earth is flat, but that does not matter really.

As to the compare to Sony Mobile, I guess by your standards it is doing ok, because it has never produced better phones... problem is that their sales are very low (even if they are finally profitable).

On the other hand, Samsung is doing awesome and have historically highest profits and sales ever.

As to the Lexus suffering, with them doing as today, I dont see it.
 

supra93

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We have been over this? lol. The GS debuted in 2012 as a 2013 model. I know since I bought it in the first year.

Maybe understand sales goals a bit. The GS is not a 5/E in regards to ever being positioned as a volume sedan. The ES is. Thus Lexus set a modest target for the GS. Not every car produced has a goal to be the #1 best selling in class. NO ONE will out sell the E/5. It would be like saying the Genesis G80 is a flop since it isn't selling like a 5/E. It never will. I'm not sure of their sales target but surely its not 50 or 60k a year. No one said 24k a year was something to brag about. Maybe chill out.

Last I looked, Lexus sales worldwide were still doing well. They are still the 4th best selling luxury brand in the world. Obviously they are doing what people want still.

I completely disagree that Lexus isn't so great now. Lexus is outstanding even with some omissions. We shouldn't bring up the 1990s since Hyundai/Kia back then were producing absolute monkey crap. I know since I owned one.

Yes this is the second time you are trying to convince people that the G80 is a brand new car.

Past GS has sold in 30k mark. Its just really sad that a "brand new Hyundai" is outselling an establish car like the GS. Me chill out? You're the one that got in my face first, but ok.

Yes so great that they are sticking in a decade old drivetrain into everything... Some of you need to stop drinking the Lexus Kool-Aid. It's called constructive criticism. But oh no, if anyone here has anything bad to say about Lexus watch out the whole LE community will be gunning for you.
 

mikeavelli

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Yes this is the second time you are trying to convince people that the G80 is a brand new car.

Past GS has sold in 30k mark. Its just really sad that a "brand new Hyundai" is outselling an establish car like the GS. Me chill out? You're the one that got in my face first, but ok.

Yes so great that they are sticking in a decade old drivetrain into everything... Some of you need to stop drinking the Lexus Kool-Aid. It's called constructive criticism. But oh no, if anyone here has anything bad to say about Lexus watch out the whole LE community will be gunning for you.

I'm not trying to convince anyone the G80 is a brand new car. It is not; it was rebadged. We know this.

I know the past GS sold past the 30k mark but that time back in 1998/1999/2000 is completely different from today.

You are getting overly aggressive attacking me and Lexus & then putting the entire LE community in a bucket I don't appreciate. There has been countless posts with constructive criticism here against Lexus; thus, your observation isn't remotely accurate.

Now let's stick to the topic on hand please.
 

krew

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Yes so great that they are sticking in a decade old drivetrain into everything... Some of you need to stop drinking the Lexus Kool-Aid. It's called constructive criticism. But oh no, if anyone here has anything bad to say about Lexus watch out the whole LE community will be gunning for you.

Eh, we have @Gecko claiming the brand is doomed without a new TT V8 and @ssun30 comparing the brand to pre-collapse Sony -- I don't think criticizing Lexus is frowned upon here.

Let's dial down the hurt feelings and focus on the facts.
 

supra93

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I don't think I was being rude or anything. I never attacked anyone personal or anything like that, but sure, I'll give certain people their safe space. Ok lets get back on topic, so the facts are its taking a piece of the pie. To early to tell if they will have any long term effects, we'll just have to revisit this topic in around 5 years when Genesis has a full line up.
 

ssun30

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Hmm...I never intended to escalate the discussion into this and never explicitly said TMC will fall like Sony. Just saying I was worried but then people overreacted and thought it's a doomsday call.
 

krew

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Hmm...I never intended to escalate the discussion into this and never explicitly said TMC will fall like Sony. Just saying I was worried but then people overreacted and thought it's a doomsday call.

I think we're just having a little fun -- I don't see any harm in constructive criticism. Your Sony theory was very interesting and never really occurred to me, but I can't see TMC failing to that degree.
 

Ian Schmidt

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And just to close that circle, Sony's started to get good reviews on their TVs again. And while they were in that desert their digital camera line became very well regarded and the PS4 outsold the Xbox One by just over 2:1 so they weren't exactly in danger of going out of business.
 

mikeavelli

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And just to close that circle, Sony's started to get good reviews on their TVs again. And while they were in that desert their digital camera line became very well regarded and the PS4 outsold the Xbox One by just over 2:1 so they weren't exactly in danger of going out of business.

Sony Movies are doing great and their camera's are game changers. Obviously Sony today is not the Sony of the past with walkman's. I have a few friends there so I get updated on some pretty cool things.
 

CRSKTN

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Hyundai be like: 3.5% operating margins and dropping ROCE!

Toyota be like: Over double that and steady.

Consumers be like: "Genesis can do it! Why not Lexus! Look at this covered mule, it proves it!"

Let's touch base in a decade and do a post mortem of these models and see which are still around. Lexus messed around with plenty of model variations/wagons/etc too until they started to find what works/doesn't work.

That said, more competition is better.
 

Gecko

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Consumers be like: "Genesis can do it! Why not Lexus! Look at this covered mule, it proves it!"

I'm no Hyundai fanboy, but Genesis also:
- Has a V8 in their flagship sedan
- Has an all-new midsize RWD performance luxury sedan
- Is dropping a RWD performance CUV
- Has a compact sedan with a 365hp turbo V6 and an interior like this:
fd4b22ded4027232f6af6d21e31d817bx.jpg


... so It's not that Genesis CAN do it -- they already have, and we're hoping Lexus catches up.
 

CRSKTN

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I'm no Hyundai fanboy, but Genesis also:
- Has a V8 in their flagship sedan
- Has an all-new midsize RWD performance luxury sedan
- Is dropping a RWD performance CUV
- Has a compact sedan with a 365hp turbo V6 and an interior like this:
fd4b22ded4027232f6af6d21e31d817bx.jpg


... so It's not that Genesis CAN do it -- they already have, and we're hoping Lexus catches up.

You're misunderstanding me.

I have no problem with Hyundai/Genesis. I think it's great they are putting pressure on other car companies with competitive, compelling products.

What I'm saying is you need to wait and see what the longer-term Genesis brand looks like to see if this is sustainable.
This wouldn't be the first time a company invested big in a model. Whether or not it works, and sticks, and becomes a part of their roadmap still needs to be seen. There's nothing to say that in 5 years or so, we won't see Genesis/Hyundai face the same obstacles others have. If they can overcome it and continue to be profitable, capital efficient, and keep these models at this level relative to price point (and other aspects like service quality, durability, build quality, etc), that would be a confirmation it is possible.

There's always examples of consumers benefiting from companies over-investing. Look at the boom years in Japan. I have myself dealt with teams that invested like crazy in compelling products, and everyone flipped out and said "see! It is possible!", and then the plans fell apart when they realized they'd never generate the anticipated returns, or that there would be other challenges (e.g. crossing the chasm to mass market).

Great for Genesis, great for consumers, but again I'm not passing judgement on this until I'm confident that Genesis isn't just burning money to try and buy market and mindshare, only to see offering slip down the road.
 

spwolf

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I'm no Hyundai fanboy, but Genesis also:
- Has a V8 in their flagship sedan
- Has an all-new midsize RWD performance luxury sedan
- Is dropping a RWD performance CUV
- Has a compact sedan with a 365hp turbo V6 and an interior like this:
fd4b22ded4027232f6af6d21e31d817bx.jpg


... so It's not that Genesis CAN do it -- they already have, and we're hoping Lexus catches up.

It is all by the forum enthusiast book, and then they have 1500 sales per month, despite 3 models and generous incentives. So what are they doing terribly wrong and what is Lexus doing terribly right?

While no brand is currently affected by Genesis sales, even if it increases, Lexus will likely be least affected of them all simply because as you mention, it currently does not target the same buyer.