W206 Mercedes-Benz C-Class spy shots

Will1991

Moderator
Messages
1,349
Reactions
2,754
Totally agreed. If you're downsizing the ICE that dramatically, just rip off the bandage and go BEV.

Totally agree!

And in real life there’re some cases that turbocharging a smaller displacement engine gets worse fuel economy, this being one of the main reasons some automakers went to higher displacement engines with good results (Toyota and Mazda for example), and others changed directions (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/engine-downsizing-come-end-says-volkswagen-boss).
Even electrifying doesn’t mean better fuel economy ( https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...onomy-ratings-than-330i-sedan-old-142765.html ).
 
Last edited:

internalaudit

Admirer
Messages
927
Reactions
991
Totally agree!

And in real life there’re some cases that turbocharging a smaller displacement engine gets worse fuel economy, this being one of the main reasons some automakers went to higher displacement engines with good results (Toyota and Mazda for example), and others changed directions (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/engine-downsizing-come-end-says-volkswagen-boss).
Even electrifying doesn’t mean better fuel economy ( https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...onomy-ratings-than-330i-sedan-old-142765.html ).

And we're a day away to see it!

And what happens after the battery is fully depleted to the point it cannot add significant oomph to that 4 banger? :) :)
 

Sulu

Admirer
Messages
725
Reactions
999
Totally agree!

And in real life there’re some cases that turbocharging a smaller displacement engine gets worse fuel economy, this being one of the main reasons some automakers went to higher displacement engines with good results (Toyota and Mazda for example), and others changed directions (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/engine-downsizing-come-end-says-volkswagen-boss).
Even electrifying doesn’t mean better fuel economy ( https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...onomy-ratings-than-330i-sedan-old-142765.html ).

And we're a day away to see it!

Overwork an undersized engine or underwork an oversized engine. Which would you prefer? (Hint: engines, unlike people, do not get stronger with hard exercise.)
 

Sulu

Admirer
Messages
725
Reactions
999
And what happens after the battery is fully depleted to the point it cannot add significant oomph to that 4 banger? :) :)
That is what happens with single-motor parallel hybrids. Without the opportunity to allow the engine (with the second electric motor-generator) to recharge the battery even while the hybrid drive is providing electric boost, the battery may discharge to full depletion, at which point you are dragging along the dead weight of the traction battery.
 

internalaudit

Admirer
Messages
927
Reactions
991
I guess news about the C63 belongs here instead of that LZ forum. It's looking like there will be a massive electrified turbo boost to the 2.0 4 banger.


Mercedes-AMG's M139 turbocharged 2.0-liter four-banger currently powers the A45, CLA45, and GLA45. In those models it's mounted transversely, but in the upcoming plug-in hybrids it'll be mounted longitudinally. The hybrid four is equipped with a new electrified turbocharger that minimizes turbo lag while still offering the performance of a larger, laggier turbo. Mercedes says this internal combustion engine can make more than 442 horsepower on its own, so we can expect total output with the electric motor to be significantly higher than that.

Unlike other AMG hybrids such as the GT53 and GT43, which use an electric motor placed between the engine and nine-speed automatic, these plug-in hybrids have a permanent-magnet synchronous AC motor on the rear axle. This improves the weight distribution, among other advantages. A 4.8-kWh battery pack developed by AMG weighs 196 pounds and can provide up to 201 horsepower for up to 10 seconds, or 94 horses continuously. The rear axle carries a tw0-speed automatic transmission just for the motor and an electronically controlled limited-slip differential. All-wheel drive is standard.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
2,625
Reactions
6,095
That's a ton of parts to go wrong in 3 years. All that engineering for not much gains. A TM3P is simpler, and will beat it.
 

internalaudit

Admirer
Messages
927
Reactions
991
Will probably break down past the 4 year warranty. Some still won't adopt BEVs. Tesla may be good for eight years then time to buy a new pack. :).

I would just go for the Taycan CT for $30k more if only because the air suspension and battery plus are standard, among other things.

At least it's real sports sedan and the interior is much better than any Tesla.
 
Messages
1,422
Reactions
2,289
I guess news about the C63 belongs here instead of that LZ forum. It's looking like there will be a massive electrified turbo boost to the 2.0 4 banger.


Mercedes-AMG's M139 turbocharged 2.0-liter four-banger currently powers the A45, CLA45, and GLA45. In those models it's mounted transversely, but in the upcoming plug-in hybrids it'll be mounted longitudinally. The hybrid four is equipped with a new electrified turbocharger that minimizes turbo lag while still offering the performance of a larger, laggier turbo. Mercedes says this internal combustion engine can make more than 442 horsepower on its own, so we can expect total output with the electric motor to be significantly higher than that.

Unlike other AMG hybrids such as the GT53 and GT43, which use an electric motor placed between the engine and nine-speed automatic, these plug-in hybrids have a permanent-magnet synchronous AC motor on the rear axle. This improves the weight distribution, among other advantages. A 4.8-kWh battery pack developed by AMG weighs 196 pounds and can provide up to 201 horsepower for up to 10 seconds, or 94 horses continuously. The rear axle carries a tw0-speed automatic transmission just for the motor and an electronically controlled limited-slip differential. All-wheel drive is standard.

I saw this, and what makes me sad is that we're moving towards a solution that's visibly more stressed and unreliable than the old power unit.

The M177 engine was actually a reliable engine and was known for being able to hold a ton of abuse. Mercedes were simply killing it in the engine department and their success there gave their AMG cars so much character. Now though? It really seems like BMW is going to outdo Mercedes when it comes to the driving experience. If the B58 is absolutely cracked up, then the S58 is on acid. It's that insane specification-wise and as a driving experience, reviewers are saying it's truly way more rev happy and responsive than the S55. Just don't look at the face of the new M3. BMW built the perfect M car in terms of specs but they blew it with the face.
 

Will1991

Moderator
Messages
1,349
Reactions
2,754
And what happens after the battery is fully depleted to the point it cannot add significant oomph to that 4 banger? :) :)
That is what happens with single-motor parallel hybrids. Without the opportunity to allow the engine (with the second electric motor-generator) to recharge the battery even while the hybrid drive is providing electric boost, the battery may discharge to full depletion, at which point you are dragging along the dead weight of the traction battery.

Well, it seems Mercedes has a belt-driven starter/alternator:

2021-mercedes-amg-e-performance.jpg


But yes, I don't think it's powerful enough to provide maximum power all the time...

Overall, it seems to be a quite impressive system:

2021-mercedes-amg-e-performance.jpg


2021-mercedes-amg-e-performance.jpg


2021-mercedes-amg-e-performance.jpg


2021-mercedes-amg-e-performance.jpg
 

Sebass

Follower
Messages
110
Reactions
219
Yeah, I have no doubt that AMG is doing some crazy advanced technical stuff, but in my opinion, one you get to 500+ horsepower, I would just much rather have a 6/8 cylinder than a 4 cylinder hybrid. Once again, just seems like they are really going to neuter the soul of the c63.
 

Levi

Expert
Messages
1,961
Reactions
2,267
Wonder how heavy it will be. While it adds a battery, it loses half of cylinders. Weight will be shifted towards the rear axle, might not feel nose heavy.


The sad thing, it will fart no end to compensate the already farting V8 sound.

The other thing, TTV8 plugin making +700 PS. Lexus should make RX F with 1200 PS, for it to be good for the next 15 years given the life cycle of Lexus vehicles.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
2,625
Reactions
6,095
Mercedes answered a question nobody asked. This is an incredibly unnecessarily over-engineered solution that will end up inferior to much simpler solutions like Polestar 1.

The only impressive thing about this car is the battery pack. 68Wh/kg for a 25C battery is very good (note: these numbers are at the pack level). Don't know about the durability though...

I hope Toyota will start to trickle down its LMP1 battery to Lexus F products. I would trust an battery designed for LM24 more.

And what happens after the battery is fully depleted to the point it cannot add significant oomph to that 4 banger? :) :)
Well one positive thing is it can maintain output better than BEVs, which go to limp mode after a few hard acceleration runs. I don't know whether the electric turbocharger could function as a full MGU-H (doubt it) and recover some electrical energy when the battery is depleted.
 
Last edited:

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
5,688
Reactions
12,338
Same unit in the new SL etc. Impressive numbers for a 4 considering a 6 cylinder Q50 Red Sport makes 400hp and the new Acura 3.0 turbo sucks. Lexus V-6 tt also makes over 400hp.

That said online people aren’t happy. And i just don’t see a huge gain with MPG in real world driving.
 

NXracer

Admirer
Messages
853
Reactions
596
100hp/L I guess is the new performance benchmark to match for any new performance ICEV...cough cough Lexus F.

A couple years ago, i4 was kicked to the curb by the online community loudspeaker. Fast forward paying customers seem not to care.