Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion

Discussion in 'Lexus Lounge' started by ssun30, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. spwolf
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    they consider them better overall and hence are willing to pay premium for them vs lions.
     
  2. Will1991
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    This one (NiMH as a better alternative) was quite a surprise for me, but now I clearly understand a lot of sales decisions... Even with Li-ion returning a better fuel consumption....
     
  3. spwolf
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    lion's do not return better fuel consumption... it is just that in some cars they were put in cheaper models without much equipment so less weight overall (not just battery, but also equipment cut) made it enough to post better numbers. They were also put into cheaper models because they are cheaper to produce for Toyota, as we see now with Lexus staying on nimh while cheaper Toyota models move to lion.

    I guess putting cheaper lion's instead of nimh is not going to be a problem for Toyota, because market perceives them as better.

    I wonder where the new 500k li-ion batteries are coming from though, as it does seem that from 2019 they will start doing at least 500k per year in li-ion batteries and still about the same 1.5m of nimh.
     
  4. peterharvey
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    TMC has confused me.
    How is the older NiMH tech better than the new Lions?
     
  5. ssun30
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    That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

    No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion. The only advantage is safety (though that alone is a good reason against Li-ion). In every other criteria it is worse than Li-ion period, including durability.

    And Li-ion does improve efficiency not only because it saves weight, but also because Li-ion packs have lower impedance. Individual cells are comparable, but Li-ion packs use 1/3 the number of cells to achieve same voltage. This is also the reason why Li-ion is cheaper despite being more expensive on a single cell basis.

    Lexus switched to Li-ion pack for their flagship hybrid system. Go figure why.
     
  6. carguy420
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    Even though quite a few Teslas haved catch on fire they don't seem to suffer from any PR headaches, also their horrible build quality and their misleading "Autopilot" which is partially responsible for all those crashes.
     
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  7. spwolf
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    I dont sell nimh batteries, i dont want anyone to believe anything :)

    I am just repeating what TMC has said recently on why are they putting li-ion batteries into cheaper vehicles, and yes it is likely because of safety and likely few other things they believe... they basically admitted li-ions are cheaper for them than nimh and that is why they are putting them into cheaper vehicles. And it does jive with the fact that previously they put them in barebone versions of hybrids.

    As to the other reasons, we will likely keep finding them out in various interviews with TMC engineers next year, like we do now. Lots of hybrids being introduced, lots of possibilities for interviews.
     
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  8. isanatori
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    Regardless of what anyone might believe, Toyota uses NiMH for a reason.
    They use NIMH on Century which just blows any Lexus.
    Lion doesn't make 500h faster than
    GS450h. It's not really more efficient in real life.
    Also you don't want to be near the 500h when the charger blows air to low the battery temp. It is that painful!
     
  9. ssun30
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    That's what I said. Read my post again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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  10. carguy420
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    Does anyone know how the awd system in the IS and GS works?
     
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  11. GNS
    GNS
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    I found this:

     
  12. carguy420
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    Great find! I can't believe that Lexus didn't do much to advertise such a sophisticated awd system in the IS and GS.

    Does the new Toyota Crown use the same system?
     
  13. GNS
    GNS
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    Note: the article I copied from says 20F/80R for the torque split but I believe it's actually 30F/70R.

    The IS' AWD system is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in one. It appears to have been around for a long time so I'm sure the kinks have been worked out.

    I also like that it's full time and not a clutch-only (ie. haldex) system. Using those planetary gears to apportion a default torque split also means that the clutch isn't under as much stress. I think that makes the system more predictable, and the clutch should last a very long time because I don't think the majority of driving scenarios require it to go 50F/50R.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  14. baysta
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    Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  15. ssun30
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    There's no point for them to develop a 1GR-FKS because there's no other vehicle to use it.
     
  16. 3RZ
    3RZ
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    If I had to put money on it, bet on a 2GR-FKS and an 8sp Auto for the refreshed 4runner and Tacoma for 2020. The 1GR was a dedicated truck variant of the GR series and its torque curve will definatley be missed. As for future powertrains in 2023, our first clue will be what they throw in the 2020 highlander due out in a few months. A new corporate 2.4 turbo (A25A-FTS ?) may be the eventual GR replacement based on leaked 2020 IS350 specs.
     
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  17. baysta
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    If that's the case, I hope the 8AT will fix some of the issues Taco owners have had about the 2GR-FKS+6AT gearing/power curve to make it a worthy upgrade, maybe an update to the engine itself would be nice as well, although I don't know what they could or would do to make it less anemic. It sucks that truck engines are getting smaller and relying on forced induction for power. I guess I'll have to leave a modernized 1GR in my dreams.

    In any case, has a powertrain update been at least been tentatively confirmed for the vehicles being refreshed for MY2020(4Runner, Tacoma, etc.)?
     
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  18. shizhi
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  19. Joaquin Ruhi
    Joaquin Ruhi Staff Member Moderator
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    If M20C is a Chinese-market variant of the M20A 2-liter, 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated engine, then it follows that M15C (if it's a 3-cylinder engine as shizhi and other rumors reported here suggest) is essentially 3/4 of the M20C, with the same bore x stroke in each roughly 500cc cylinder.

    M15C and M20C are only the prefix of the engine codes. We would need to know the suffix to get the complete picture of these engines' specifications. Thus far, M20C (China) and M20A (rest of the world) have been revealed in FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) guises. Would we, at some point, see an M20A or M20C-FTS as a true, more direct replacement for the 8NR-FTS? Or if a turbocharged M15A or M15C-FTS would indeed be powerful enough to replace 8NR-FTS - a 2-liter, 4-cylinder turbocharged engine - then would there also eventually be FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) versions of the M15C for those more focused on fuel economy?
     
  20. 3RZ
    3RZ
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    Nothing is confirmed except for apple car play but its highly likely we'll see an updated transmission. A shorter 1st gear would do wonders for the Tacoma and a 8 speed will definitely give them the flexibility to do that.
     
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