Toyota BZ4X

[larryren]

Accoding to Creative311, this car has a similar size to the RAV4 but a similar height to the UX, and this get me thinking...

The NX is growing in size, Lexus is rumored to be launching a Yaris Cross based SUV with similar interior space to the UX... Perhaps the 2UX will grow a bit and turn into BEV only with this eTNGA platform?

Some Chinese medias in local said "BZ4X is seem little bigger than NX/slightly smaller than RX......

 

[Trob20]

Alex on Autos mentions at the 0:42 mark that the new Toyota EV will debut in about a month or so. The videos for the new Lexus NX were filmed in Mid-September and they came out today, so that means we should see something between now and the Mid-November? I assume he's referring to the BZ4X.

 

[Motor]

Details of All-New bZ4X BEV Announced | Toyota | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota has announced the details of bZ4X, its all-new model BEV.

global.toyota

 

[ssun30]

Good execution for their first product. Definitely a huge improvement over UX300e.

Specs are evenly matched with ID.4 which I think is its biggest direct competitor. Size is in the sweet spot for a family car. Honda e:NS1 is one size class smaller. Seems the 230kW higher output version is reserved for Lexus RZ.

The most important thing I'm looking forward to is thermal control performance since even small hotspots (+-2 C) can considerably degrade cells and increase fire risk. ID.4 is the best EV using prismatic cells (Teslas use cylindrical so they have an inherent advantage in thermal control).

 

[spwolf]

Good step forward, still way behind on some basic things - you can see that people who are designing this are not driving EV vehicles.

I would buy 10000 model Ys and give them to R&D departments to drive as main vehicles so they understand what EV owners want and what they see as a problem that can be improved.

For instance, onboard charger is 6.ikwh from Prime, and 11kwh option comes 10/2022. That is basic part of EV, and they are late with it.

 

[Levi]

Good step forward, still way behind on some basic things - you can see that people who are designing this are not driving EV vehicles.

I would buy 10000 model Ys and give them to R&D departments to drive as main vehicles so they understand what EV owners want and what they see as a problem that can be improved.

For instance, onboard charger is 6.ikwh from Prime, and 11kwh option comes 10/2022. That is basic part of EV, and they are late with it.

Telsa and all "Tesla-killers" are the BEV equivalent to Porsche, Mercedes AMG and BMW M. Toyota does not compete against any of them, in fact in history the IS F (Lexus) was the only car to be a direct competitor, neither IS 500, RC F and GS F are. Not even GS300 (2JZ) has been a direct competitor to M5, nor the LS400 (1UZ) has been a direct competitor of V12 S Class and 7 Series. If Toyota did not compete against those in the ICEV-era, why are they expected to radically change in the BEV-era?

Any BEV that is usable now, will only be more usable in future when the charging infrastructure is even better. Will there be better BEVs? Yes, just as there are always better CPUs/GPUs. Doesn't make the older ones unusable. My Thinkpads easily serve me 10 years. My iPhones easily at least 5 years.

 

[Levi]

2005 kg for the bZX4 AWD. It is ok compared to RAV4 Prime.

Also, bZX4 will have a functional yoke compared to Telsa, because it is steer-by-wire.


I am trying to find specs of competitors, very hard to find on websites. Only BMW shows. BEV makers are deceptive. Even Tesla website has no specs.

 

[Levi]

Can't compare iD.4 GTX (AWD) to bZ4X because one former has 220 kw. bZ4X must be compared to iD.4 Pro Performance with 150 kW, but it is only FWD. Anyway, the Toyota compares very favorably, better than any Corolla has ever compared to Golf.

 

[qtb007]

Off the top of my head, this has a 71kWh battery pack versus the iD.4's 82kWh pack. I can't find apples to apples range numbers. (same measurement cycle) I wonder if they will spec more than 71kWh pack for the US market along with closer to 180kW.

 

[spwolf]

Off the top of my head, this has a 71kWh battery pack versus the iD.4's 82kWh pack. I can't find apples to apples range numbers. (same measurement cycle) I wonder if they will spec more than 71kWh pack for the US market along with closer to 180kW.

i dont think so, they reached their goal of 500km WLTP and they probably sized battery based on that.

 

[Levi]

Model	iD.4 (RWD)	bZ4X (FWD)	bZ4X (RWD)
Weight	2.045 kg	1.920 kg	2.005 kg
Battery	77,0 kWh	71,4 kWh	71,4 kWh
Range	<520 km	<500 km	<460 km
Length	4.584 mm	4.690 mm	4.690 mm
Width	1.852 mm	1.860 mm	1.860 mm
Height	1.603 mm	1.650 mm	1.650 mm
Wheelbase	2.771 mm	2.850 mm	2.850 mm
0-100 km/h	8,5 sec	8,4 sec	7,7 sec

bZ4X looks highly competitive. can't compare with Korean yet, but the bZ4X is the electric RAV4 everyone has been waiting for.

 

[spwolf]

Telsa and all "Tesla-killers" are the BEV equivalent to Porsche, Mercedes AMG and BMW M. Toyota does not compete against any of them, in fact in history the IS F (Lexus) was the only car to be a direct competitor, neither IS 500, RC F and GS F are. Not even GS300 (2JZ) has been a direct competitor to M5, nor the LS400 (1UZ) has been a direct competitor of V12 S Class and 7 Series. If Toyota did not compete against those in the ICEV-era, why are they expected to radically change in the BEV-era?

Any BEV that is usable now, will only be more usable in future when the charging infrastructure is even better. Will there be better BEVs? Yes, just as there are always better CPUs/GPUs. Doesn't make the older ones unusable. My Thinkpads easily serve me 10 years. My iPhones easily at least 5 years.

Tesla is not Porsche... Tesla is Toyota/VW.

Tesla's goal is wide market domination, this is why they have Model 3 and Model Y, which are very nicely priced vehicles... Next step will be a smaller, city/corolla like vehicle for $25k-$30k.

So problem that VW has is that people who are buying id3 and id4 are comparing it to Tesla's that are very similar in price, and nobody cares that VW has started late and it has 5 years to catch up.

Market is not fair... it is not fair that Tesla is outselling id3/id4 in Germany, who traditionally does not buy foreign vehicles and where most of loyal VW userbase is.

Same goes for Toyota - it looks like they did things better than VW, however if you drive EV today, you would not buy this first version of BZ4X because having 6.8kwh onboard charger is extremely dumb and you know it will be a problem when you are charging in shopping mall and need more time.

Second part of it, why would I drive FWD 8.4s 0-100kmh vehicle, when I can get Tesla or Hyundai or Kia that are much faster than that, for the same price? Because I can upgrade to Lexus for extar $15k and get 300hp?

That is the same problem that VW has, where they expect you to go Skoda > VW > Audi > Porsche and refuse features to lower brand that will enable them to sell against Tesla.

Again, Tesla is not niche... they are #1 competitor that has major share and that is exponentially growing.
Tesla will sell 2m cars next year, who knows how many 3-4 years from now.

All I am saying, if you are designing EV, you need to drive EV and understand problems that customers have with EVs so you can design it. This is definitely good first effort, but they are comparing it to id4 and not market leader.

 

[Levi]

Tesla is not Porsche... Tesla is Toyota/VW.

Tesla's goal is wide market domination, this is why they have Model 3 and Model Y, which are very nicely priced vehicles... Next step will be a smaller, city/corolla like vehicle for $25k-$30k.

So problem that VW has is that people who are buying id3 and id4 are comparing it to Tesla's that are very similar in price, and nobody cares that VW has started late and it has 5 years to catch up.

Market is not fair... it is not fair that Tesla is outselling id3/id4 in Germany, who traditionally does not buy foreign vehicles and where most of loyal VW userbase is.

Same goes for Toyota - it looks like they did things better than VW, however if you drive EV today, you would not buy this first version of BZ4X because having 6.8kwh onboard charger is extremely dumb and you know it will be a problem when you are charging in shopping mall and need more time.

Second part of it, why would I drive FWD 8.4s 0-100kmh vehicle, when I can get Tesla or Hyundai or Kia that are much faster than that, for the same price? Because I can upgrade to Lexus for extar $15k and get 300hp?

That is the same problem that VW has, where they expect you to go Skoda > VW > Audi > Porsche and refuse features to lower brand that will enable them to sell against Tesla.

Again, Tesla is not niche... they are #1 competitor that has major share and that is exponentially growing.
Tesla will sell 2m cars next year, who knows how many 3-4 years from now.

All I am saying, if you are designing EV, you need to drive EV and understand problems that customers have with EVs so you can design it. This is definitely good first effort, but they are comparing it to id4 and not market leader.

Still unvalid argument. Toyota never compared to market leader in any segment (sportscar, trucks, hot-hatches, turbos,....). That is their strategy, whether you/we agree with this strategy or not. The same reproach you make about Toyota BEV not being competitive against Tesla leader, the same reproach "we" Lexus enthusiasts make about Lexus not being competitive against Porsche, Mercedes and BMW high-end and performance models. Yet "our" criticism is unfounded and yours is.


PS: Telsa put a yoke on the Model S without the underlying hardware. I wonder how they are going to OTA update the mechanical link to provide true steer-by-wire.

 

[spwolf]

Still unvalid argument. Toyota never compared to market leader in any segment (sportscar, trucks, hot-hatches, turbos,....). That is their strategy, whether you/we agree with this strategy or not. The same reproach you make about Toyota BEV not being competitive against Tesla leader, the same reproach "we" Lexus enthusiasts make about Lexus not being competitive against Porsche, Mercedes and BMW high-end and performance models. Yet "our" criticism is unfounded and yours is.


PS: Telsa put a yoke on the Model S without the underlying hardware. I wonder how they are going to OTA update the mechanical link to provide true steer-by-wire.

what exactly are you arguing anyway, that Toyota does not need compare itself with market leader?
It is hard to understand what are you trying to say - this is not about forum wars, or spec comparisment, it is how EV buyer like myself, would look at EV vehicle purchase.

Toyota, VW, GM, Ford do not exist in vacuum.

We can argue on forums as much as we want, fact is Toyota probably plans to sell less than 50k-70k BEVs in 2022, and their lack of experience shows.

This is one of the reasons why Tesla is worth gazillions.

 

[spwolf]

Model	iD.4 (RWD)	bZ4X (FWD)	bZ4X (RWD)
Weight	2.045 kg	1.920 kg	2.005 kg
Battery	77,0 kWh	71,4 kWh	71,4 kWh
Range	<520 km	<500 km	<460 km
Length	4.584 mm	4.690 mm	4.690 mm
Width	1.852 mm	1.860 mm	1.860 mm
Height	1.603 mm	1.650 mm	1.650 mm
Wheelbase	2.771 mm	2.850 mm	2.850 mm
0-100 km/h	8,5 sec	8,4 sec	7,7 sec

bZ4X looks highly competitive. can't compare with Korean yet, but the bZ4X is the electric RAV4 everyone has been waiting for.

looks good compared to id4, does not look good compared to Hyundai and KIA - although they have their own problems right now. But yes, you can see in drivetrain that it is Hyundai's and KIA's 2nd gen product, and that it is Toyota's first gen.

But again, people buying it wont really compare it to Hyundai... or VW. They will be Toyota brand affectionados.

 

[Levi]

what exactly are you arguing anyway, that Toyota does not need compare itself with market leader?
It is hard to understand what are you trying to say - this is not about forum wars, or spec comparisment, it is how EV buyer like myself, would look at EV vehicle purchase.

Toyota, VW, GM, Ford do not exist in vacuum.

We can argue on forums as much as we want, fact is Toyota probably plans to sell less than 50k-70k BEVs in 2022, and their lack of experience shows.

This is one of the reasons why Tesla is worth gazillions.

I agree Toyota/Lexus should not live in a vacuum. Where is IS F with +500 PS V6 AWD to compete against M3? Where is LC F +600 PS V8 AWD to compete against M6? Where is Toyota GR Hilux to compete against Ford Ranger Raptor? Where is GR Corolla to compete against Golf R? Where is LS 750e F Sport Performance to compete against Tesla S Plaid?

 

[spwolf]

I agree Toyota/Lexus should not live in a vacuum. Where is IS F with +500 PS V6 AWD to compete against M3? Where is LC F +600 PS V8 AWD to compete against M6? Where is Toyota GR Hilux to compete against Ford Ranger Raptor? Where is GR Corolla to compete against Golf R? Where is LS 750e F Sport Performance to compete against Tesla S Plaid?

Sure, but those vehicles are not mass market. This is mass market vehicle. Do not have any doubts that Model Y will sell over 600,000-700,000 units next year, placing it into top 5 vehicles sold in the world.

It is absolutely mass market vehicle targeting everyone, and this is why Toyota has bz4x and VW has id4 (plus Hyundai and KIA their own versions).

To compete with Model S Plaid, this is a good first step. You cant compete with LS750e F Sport though, unless next gen LS is TNGAe, which it will not be.

 

[spwolf]

@Levi how does production compare to concept, does it look the same?

 

[Levi]

Model	EV6 (RWD)	bZ4X (FWD)	bZ4X (RWD)
Weight	1.985 kg	1.920 kg	2.005 kg
Battery	77,4 kWh	71,4 kWh	71,4 kWh
Range	530 km	500 km	460 km
Length	4.680 mm	4.690 mm	4.690 mm
Width	1.880 mm	1.860 mm	1.860 mm
Height	1.550 mm	1.650 mm	1.650 mm
Wheelbase	2.900 mm	2.850 mm	2.850 mm
0-100 km/h	7,3 sec	8,4 sec	7,7 sec

Kia looks better on paper. But nothing new, Toyota never looked good on paper.

 

[Levi]

@Levi how does production compare to concept, does it look the same?

How does Cybertruck compare to Rivian? Anyway, bZ4X never was a concept. It just is not yet for sale. Must I remind you how long every Telsa went from presentation to sale? How every VAG BEV was delayed? Tesla is 10 years ahead. The rest is at the same stage, 1-2 years difference is nothing.

I do not know what your point is. Every car maker has a whole range of BEVs coming, including Kia/Hyundai. The BEV market is at the stage where Bitcoin went from 200$ to 500$.