Toyota Announces New Engines, New Transmissions, & New Hybrid System

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,727
Reactions
3,149
I personally don't think that banning internal combustion engines is going to happen in the States anytime soon. Electric charging infrastructure is not well developed and in general, our road system is much more spread out and our transportation system is less developed than most of Europe.

Can't drive from ____ to ______ in an electric car in ~5-6 hours. That'll never fly with Americans.

Of course ICEs are here for quite some time, but it will not be big V8 that will be needed, however good they are or how much we like them.

The way many analysts see ICEVs vs BEVs is IMO ( interest or preference?) biased and flawed. This [automotive] disruption (overused business strategic buzzword) is more likely to be a transition or shift than an outright disruption. Unlike electronic devices which a affordable and functional in most conditions, cars are expensive (second most expensive product in a household after private property) and BEVs depend on infrastructure -- both public and private -- to be used without inconveniences.

When we look at previous disruptions in electronic devices, they were really fast (digital cameras, cell phones, smartphones), and the sudden changes hurt companies. Analyst claim car makers to face the same troubles. From my study of innovative disruptions, I conclude that they are like accidents, thus unpredictable, yet mitigable. Products are classified as consumer products and business/professional products, the needs are different, but in some cases the products even when very specific can takeover the other group. In consumer products depending on the infrastructure and disposable income, where BEVs are not viable ICEVs (HEVs/PHEVs) will continue selling till the right conditions for BEVs are met. In business products, cars will have similar conditions, but buses, trucks, tractors, and other industrial equipment will develop independently.

So ICEVs vs BEVs, it would be more like CD and .mp3 and streaming (possible thanks to telecommunication network infrastructure with 3G and 4G, equivalent to charging or hydrogen fueling infrastructure), rather than total replacement of feature phones by smartphones (also thanks to infrastructure) with some companies taken by surprise like Nokia, with "wrong" operating system (comparable to wrong alternative fuel, think hydrogen fuel cell vs lithium-ion battery).

This means the the car manufactures to come out as winners will be those that will be able to balance between the different market demands, ICEV(PHEV) and BEV while maintaining market share and profitability.

With gasoline I4 and V6 engine, both turbocharged and naturally aspirated + hybrid, so as BEVs and as side development yet HFC, TMC is very well positioned. In Europe TMC is doing very well (relatively) without many diesel engines, and it will be always tougher for diesel. As for the professional products (SUVs, pickups) Toyota does have diesel engines, which are good due to their reliability. I believe V8 engines are a waste of resources. For the next Land Cruiser/LX, a 4.2l I6 diesel based on the 1GD 2.8l I4 of the Hilux would be all diesel needed.
 

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,727
Reactions
3,149
Very good points ...

However, from someone living in the UK, I can tell you what's happening on this side of the pond.

Germany is voting on banning internal combustion engines by 2030 which will definitely affect the rest of the EU. How the manufacturers will respond is a different story.

Diesel is still extremely popular on all types of vehicles; SUVs, sedans, luxury vehicles, etc... I find it weird, cause I can hear how loud the are, but the owners state that they're just as quite and smooth as petrol.

I know about diesels in Europe, but it is getting tougher for them. I see diesels being mostly used for professional vehicles (vans, pickups and SUVs). Lexus has no diesel in Europe anymore. And Toyota uses BMW diesels, and has only three diesel engines for FWD cars.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
6,807
Reactions
15,217
Well, if that is to replace all other admittedly old and ZF outsourced automatic transmissions, then better. I just know VAG DSG is not reliable, and hope TMC's will. If it is Aisin that makes these new direct-shift 8- and 10-speed gearboxes, I think we can be sure they will be great, Aisin makes the best (most reliable) gearboxes in the industry.

Its been my experience that PDK really is the best there is. The current Lexus 8 speed in the RC F and GS F are molasses in comparison (mind you we are comparing Porsche). Its better IMO than the DSG's in Audi and Mercedes as well.

Lexus seems to be going around PDK but I'm sure they have their reasons. I hope the new transmissions come close.
 

CIF

Premium Member
Messages
1,675
Reactions
1,825
Maybe I'm a little early, but if you want to use the Camry as an example - 24/33 currently, + 20% would be roughly 28/39. I wonder if the numbers will really be that high, but we'll see. I'm betting for something like 27/38.

Isn't Honda's new 2.4L mated to a CVT? And their new 1.5L turbo as well?

At least on paper, Toyota seems to really have the upper hand with this new 2.5L/8AT combo.

Yes, Honda seems to be mating everything to CVTs nowadays. IMO Toyota is going with a superior approach, and understands that CVTs aren't for everyone, or for all applications. Toyota knows CVTs have their place, but I'm glad they are continuing on further with great automatics as well.

Yeah, even 27/38 would be amazing numbers for the Camry. Just a few years ago, those were Corolla fuel economy numbers lol :D.

Also forgot to mention, Toyota is saying the TNGA 2.5L + 8AT gets 12% better acceleration than the 2.5L AR + 6AT. So going by that, the 2018 Camry 4 cyl should do 0-60 in about 7.1 sec if it gets the 2.5L TNGA + 8AT combo. Pretty awesome for a base 4 cyl naturally aspirated engine lol.

To think that Toyota has achieved class leading numbers without even using all their tech. Imagine if the higher end/bigger engines get Valvematic on top of VVT-iE and D4-S? Some of us Toyota fans have been dreaming of this for years.

I also don't want to overstate how glad I am that Toyota put such heavy focus on smoothness, quiet operation, reducing vibrations, and improving overall refinement with these new powertrains, on top the expected fuel economy and power increases.
 
Last edited:

CIF

Premium Member
Messages
1,675
Reactions
1,825
Its been my experience that PDK really is the best there is. The current Lexus 8 speed in the RC F and GS F are molasses in comparison (mind you we are comparing Porsche). Its better IMO than the DSG's in Audi and Mercedes as well.

Lexus seems to be going around PDK but I'm sure they have their reasons. I hope the new transmissions come close.

Toyota says in their technical PDF that the new 10AT has a gear shift time of 0.22 seconds. Not sure if the same applies to the 8AT. Of course how that relates to the overall performance of the new transmission remains to be seen.
 

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,727
Reactions
3,149
Its been my experience that PDK really is the best there is. The current Lexus 8 speed in the RC F and GS F are molasses in comparison (mind you we are comparing Porsche). Its better IMO than the DSG's in Audi and Mercedes as well.

Lexus seems to be going around PDK but I'm sure they have their reasons. I hope the new transmissions come close.

Well, the funny thing is that both the Porsche /-speed PDK and the the Lexus 8-speed DS are made by the same supplier: ZF. I guess Porsche has superior data, if not the best of the car industry (for on-road, off-road might be a different story).
 

Can

Messages
5
Reactions
19
Well, the funny thing is that both the Porsche /-speed PDK and the the Lexus 8-speed DS are made by the same supplier: ZF. I guess Porsche has superior data, if not the best of the car industry (for on-road, off-road might be a different story).

I think Lexus uses Aisin's 8 speed for almost a decade.
 

CIF

Premium Member
Messages
1,675
Reactions
1,825
The Lexus 8 speed is not a ZF unit. Don't confuse Toyota/Lexus with Honda or other manufacturers. It is an Aisin unit.
 

Black Dynamite

Follower
Messages
153
Reactions
151
I am not expecting a Turbo-six to be in the LS lineup, at launch. i do expect to see it in a future refresh, around 2020.
Two engines at launch, the same 5.0 V8 and hybrid in the LC. A 600HP Twin Turbo LSF in 2019, and then a Turbo six in the 2020-2021 refresh.
BD
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
6,807
Reactions
15,217
Toyota says in their technical PDF that the new 10AT has a gear shift time of 0.22 seconds. Not sure if the same applies to the 8AT. Of course how that relates to the overall performance of the new transmission remains to be seen.

Well I'm eager to try it. I didn't read much anything in reviews about shifting so far. Going to search specifically for it this weekend.

I can now say I was told PDK was the transmission they were aiming to beat :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: CIF

ydooby

Follower
Messages
127
Reactions
261
Well I'm eager to try it. I didn't read much anything in reviews about shifting so far. Going to search specifically for it this weekend.

I can now say I was told PDK was the transmission they were aiming to beat :)
0.22 seconds is slow. Much slower than the 2008 IS-F, which Lexus claimed to shift in 0.1 seconds.
http://pressroom.lexus.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=1519

"The among the world’s fastest shift time for street legal production cars. At 0.1 second, it’s faster than you.
...
A typical F1 transmission shift time is approx. 0.05 seconds, with virtually imperceptible lag. The IS F shifts occur in approximately 1/10th of a second."
 
  • Like
Reactions: CIF

CIF

Premium Member
Messages
1,675
Reactions
1,825
Well I'm eager to try it. I didn't read much anything in reviews about shifting so far. Going to search specifically for it this weekend.

I can now say I was told PDK was the transmission they were aiming to beat :)

Yeah, Toyota says that was their goal in some of their literature. I'm not sure how close they got with such an unspectacular shift time.

0.22 seconds is slow. Much slower than the 2008 IS-F, which Lexus claimed to shift in 0.1 seconds.
http://pressroom.lexus.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=1519

"The among the world’s fastest shift time for street legal production cars. At 0.1 second, it’s faster than you.
...
A typical F1 transmission shift time is approx. 0.05 seconds, with virtually imperceptible lag. The IS F shifts occur in approximately 1/10th of a second."

I agree, it's not actually that fast in comparison to the fastest production transmissions ever made. I'm no expert at all on transmissions though, so I have no idea how much shift time by itself factors into the overall feel and performance of a transmission.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,518
Reactions
3,442
0.22 seconds is slow. Much slower than the 2008 IS-F, which Lexus claimed to shift in 0.1 seconds.
http://pressroom.lexus.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=1519

"The among the world’s fastest shift time for street legal production cars. At 0.1 second, it’s faster than you.
...
A typical F1 transmission shift time is approx. 0.05 seconds, with virtually imperceptible lag. The IS F shifts occur in approximately 1/10th of a second."

no. This is likely using different measurement.

They mention how it is fastest Lexus transmission ever and that it is faster than both competitors (BMW and MB I assume).
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,518
Reactions
3,442
transmission_009.png


here is competing transmissions in luxury vehicles from brands A B C
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,518
Reactions
3,442
also, it seems there will be V6 and V8 hybrid if we look at this pic... and also 1.5l hybrid. They also just introduced 1.0l Turbo in Japan and new Yaris engine factory in Europe is building new 1.5l. So i guess rest of them are 2.0, 1.8, 1.5, 1.3, 1.0? And Above 2.5l there are 4 engines...

upload_2016-12-10_0-28-43.png
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,518
Reactions
3,442
Thanks for the informative diagrams. Where did you find them? Hopefully it is really faster than the IS-F 8AT as you say.

EDIT: Found it.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain/transmission/


There is also pdf with even more info:
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/download/14447949

Pretty much everything is included in these transmissions and engines. They also mention "new type" of CVT. And this is the result of Toyota combining units in past 4-5 years so now each company has their own responsibility and they dont compete against each other... there is also new powertrain center where they all work together, unlike before where it was spread out across all of their suppliers.

For instance, who would think that Camry would get most advanced engine and transmission - and it is getting it.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,518
Reactions
3,442
upload_2016-12-10_1-7-46.png

another good slide. Basically all engines will get all the tech. And it will be possibly due to advanced modularization made possible by TNGA platform so that they wont have to make many versions of same engine to fit different platforms... so overall 40% less engines but all of them having all of the tech.