'Tier 2' luxury brands struggle to compete with elite Germans, Lexus

IS-SV

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Speaking of that very sub-tier 1 premium brand, 10 minutes ago I just saw a Lincoln ad on TV for the first time in over a year. The ad itself was pleasant enough but ended poorly with a listing of 3 Mxx-alphabet-soup models and some subsidized lease(s). Boy was that a waste of advertising dollars. But at least the Navigator stood out in the rolling shots.
 

mmcartalk

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When's it expected?

Word from Lincoln is that the new 2016 MDX just started production, they are taking orders, and they will be arriving at dealerships soon.

California, BTW, (particularly the L.A. region, because of its position as the center of the country's auto culture), sometimes gets new or all-new models before we do here on the East Coast, so you just might see it before we do. I've only seen it at the D.C. auto show, last January, up on a turntable, so I haven't had much exposure to it (yet). Looked a whole lot better than the last version, though.
 

IS-SV

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Word from Lincoln is that the new 2016 MDX just started production, they are taking orders, and they will be arriving at dealerships soon.

California, BTW, (particularly the L.A. region, because of its position as the center of the country's auto culture), sometimes gets new or all-new models before we do here on the East Coast, so you just might see it before we do. I've only seen it at the D.C. auto show, last January, up on a turntable, so I haven't had much exposure to it (yet). Looked a whole lot better than the last version, though.

Yes, I read Fall of 2015 somewhere for release date. I probably saw it at local show here in January, don't remember.
 

mmcartalk

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I think I sent this to you a long time ago, but, if not, I'll re-send it now.....this should help you decipher Lincoln's alphabet soup.

MKC ..........Car-based compact SUV, Ford Escape-based.
MK
X ..........Car-based mid-size SUV, Ford Edge-based (actually, a rebadged upmarket Ford Edge).
MK
T ...........Car-based large-size SVU, Ford Flex-based.
MK
Z............Mid-size sedan, Ford Fusion-based.
MKS.............Large sedan, Ford Taurus-based.
Navigator......Large truck-based SUV, Ford F-150/Expedition platform.
 

IS-SV

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I think I sent this to you a long time ago, but if not, I'll re-send it now.....this should help you get through Lincoln's alphabet soup.

MKC ..........Car-based compact SUV, Ford Escape-based.
MK
X ..........Car-based mid-size SUV, Ford Edge-based (actually, a rebadged upmarket Ford Edge).
MK
T ...........Car-based large-size SVU, Ford Flex-based.
MK
Z............Mid-size sedan, Ford Fusion-based.
MKS.............Large sedan, Ford Taurus-based.
Navigator......Large truck-based SUV, Ford F-150/Expedition based.

No, but nice list, sad that it's needed for a badge-engineering 101 course on Lincoln. Unfortunately most actual premium car buyers don't seem to know and/or care, based on actual sales results/declines. Lincoln said they might fix alphabet soup mess, but they have lots to fix sooner than later.
 

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It doesn't help when the local Cadillac dealer is never open neither. For some reason, my local caddy dealer works military contractor hours: they are open whenever they feel like and most certainly closed after 4pm
 

mmcartalk

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It doesn't help when the local Cadillac dealer is never open neither. For some reason, my local caddy dealer works military contractor hours: they are open whenever they feel like and most certainly closed after 4pm

That's interesting. Most dealerships in the U.S. operate 9 AM to 9 or 10 PM (for sales), and 9 AM to 6 PM on Saturdays. Some close down on Sundays; some open for short hours. I haven't heard of one closing down at 4 PM on weekdays.
 

mikeavelli

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It doesn't help when the local Cadillac dealer is never open neither. For some reason, my local caddy dealer works military contractor hours: they are open whenever they feel like and most certainly closed after 4pm

Thats insane....

No joke, it took me, a car guy, about 2 years to get Lincoln's alphabet soup when I compile the sales threads lol...
 

mmcartalk

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Thats insane....

No joke, it took me, a car guy, about 2 years to get Lincoln's alphabet soup when I compile the sales threads lol...

..........and, now that we're used to Alphabet Soup, Cadillac is getting ready to replace theirs with an equally confusing letter/number system.

going-in-circles-sign2.jpg
 

Och

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Well, to be fair Lincoln and Cadillac are not the only ones going with renaming alphabet soup. Mercedes is doing some of it (apparently changing all SUV names), Infiniti did it, BMW shuffled around even/odd models, all Acuras now have an X at the end, Lexus is introducing new models. Whatever, it is called progress. If someone is interested in a particular brands product, they will learn the names/models. The problem is, not too many people are genuinely interested in Cadillacs and much less Lincolns because their products are simply not quite up to par yet - although much better than they used to be a decade ago. They still have a lot of catching up to do, and they better move fast because times are changing fast. These days a car is more than just a vehicle - it is also a fashion/style/status symbol, an entertainment system, a mobile office, a tech gadget, etc - and manufacturers have to excel in all those categories in order to stay competitive. Coming up with new names without bringing new essence will not help sales.
 

mmcartalk

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Well, to be fair Lincoln and Cadillac are not the only ones going with renaming alphabet soup. Mercedes is doing some of it (apparently changing all SUV names), Infiniti did it, BMW shuffled around even/odd models, all Acuras now have an X at the end, Lexus is introducing new models. Whatever, it is called progress. If someone is interested in a particular brands product, they will learn the names/models. The problem is, not too many people are genuinely interested in Cadillacs and much less Lincolns because their products are simply not quite up to par yet - although much better than they used to be a decade ago. They still have a lot of catching up to do, and they better move fast because times are changing fast. These days a car is more than just a vehicle - it is also a fashion/style/status symbol, an entertainment system, a mobile office, a tech gadget, etc - and manufacturers have to excel in all those categories in order to stay competitive. Coming up with new names without bringing new essence will not help sales.

I agree that a number of manufacturers use the alphabet soup. Upmarket/luxury car makers, in particular, seem to think that letters (or letters/numbers) have more cache than simple names. I see no problems with names myself...and they are also (usually) easier to remember.

Cadillacs, BTW, depending on model, seem to run the whole gamut from superb to seriously wanting. What they need to do most, though, IMO, is dump the CUE and finger/sensor/slide controls, redesign the center dashboard, and bring back a real flagship....though I'll save further comment on the CT-6 until I actually see it. Parts of it, though, look pretty good in pictures.
 
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IS-SV

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Here's my take on how most premium car shoppers view the top 3 naming conventions, plus Caddy (and why Lincoln has the weakest alphabet soup naming and coincidently a sales decline in booming lux market to go with):

BMW - core products such as 3 series, 5 series, 7 series, X series are well known by even casual premium car shoppers
Mercedes - core products such as C-class, E-class, S-class are well known by even casual premium car shoppers
Lexus - core products such as the RX, ES, IS, GS, LS are well known even by casual premium car shoppers
Cadillac - core products CTS, Escalade, SRX are well know even by casual premium car shoppers

Yes, surely BMW, Mercedes and to some extent Lexus have decades of history with these naming conventions, no wonder they are remembered by so many.


Lincoln - viewed by most premium car shoppers as the MK-series of rebadged Fords (the alphabet soup that premium car buyers seem to be ignoring when actually spending real money for actual cars), with the Navigator standing alone somewhat as the fancy Expedition. Every model starts with same 2 letters (MK, exception being Navigotor), no top-tier premium automaker does that and for good reason too.

Yes, it's easy to be critical of any alphabet soup naming conventions but some do it better than others as noted above and I'm not suggesting BMW, Mercedes, Lexus (3 very strong selling lux brands in US market) have flawed naming conventions needing immediate change when compared to the lame MK-mess of Lincoln for example. Even Audi has A's / Q's for cars / SUVs distinction. Agreed, Acura's and Infiniti naming conventions are a mess, not that they are close to top 3 in terms of lux car sales...

That's just my opinion, no big deal, lol.
 
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mmcartalk

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Yes, it's easy to be critical of any alphabet soup naming conventions but some do it better than others as noted above and I'm not suggesting BMW, Mercedes, Lexus (3 very strong selling lux brands in US market) have flawed naming conventions needing immediate change when compared to the lame MK-mess of Lincoln for example. Even Audi has A's / Q's for cars / SUVs distinction. Agreed, Acura's and Infiniti naming conventions are a mess, not that they are close to top 3 in terms of lux car sales...
Although some of this is not relevant today since the company is all but dead in automanufacturing, I found Saab's former 900 and 9000 series and 9-2X/9-3X/9-7X, etc....and the old Audi 80/90/100 series as confusing as any of the companies you named above. The current Audi A and Q systems are much easier now than their old system. The part that may be relevant today, though, is I'm afraid that Cadillac may be trying to adopt something not exactly, but along the lines of that old Saab letter/number system.
 

IS-SV

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Although some of this is not relevant today since the company is all but dead in automanufacturing, I found Saab's former 900 and 9000 series and 9-2X/9-3X/9-7X, etc....and the old Audi 80/90/100 series as confusing as any of the companies you named above. The current Audi A and Q systems are much easier now than their old system. The part that may be relevant today, though, is I'm afraid that Cadillac may be trying to adopt something not exactly, but along the lines of that old Saab letter/number system.
Mostly not relevant (Saab stories, but agreed hardly worth copying), yes. Agreed Audi's A and Q systems are getting good acceptance and sales traction in marketplace.
 
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mmcartalk

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Mostly not relevant (Saab stories, but agreed hardly worth copying), yes. Agreed Audi's A and Q systems are getting good acceptance and sales traction in marketplace.

I only mentioned the old Saab system (which I found confusing) because I'm afraid that if Cadillac actually (more or less) adopts that system, as it seems to be doing with the CT-5 and CT-6, I don't think that is going to necessarily help their sales any....IMO it will just be a marketing waste of time. I personally think they should give their vehicles regular names like at the sister Chevy and Buick divisions....both of which seem to be doing better than Cadillac itself.
 

IS-SV

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I only mentioned the old Saab system (which I found confusing) because I'm afraid that if Cadillac actually (more or less) adopts that system, as it seems to be doing with the CT-5 and CT-6, I don't think that is going to necessarily help their sales any....IMO it will just be a marketing waste of time. I personally think they should give their vehicles regular names like at the sister Chevy and Buick divisions....both of which seem to be doing better than Cadillac itself.

Yes, both Lincoln and Caddy would probably benefit from regular names and a stripped-down selection of only the very good vehicles. They no longer have the legacy and history to bring to the table in 2015 to justify naming conventions like BMW and Mercedes for example (which happen to be much better than Lincolns MK-mess).
 

CIF

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Perfectly said IS-IV, I completely agree. Just because different brands are tripping over themselves trying to implement ever-more-complicated alphabet soup naming schemes, doesn't mean it's a successful strategy. More importantly it is simply a clear example of the fact that some brands that use alphabet lineups do it noticeably better than other brands.

Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus have all had clear, logical alphabet lineups for a long time. That's starting to change a bit with Mercedes renaming various models to more confusing names. Otherwise this still holds true for those main luxury brands. The other lower-tier and near-luxury brands all have more confusing naming schemes. It also becomes a chicken and egg problem. Yes, for lesser brands, customers may not care to learn the confusing alphabet soup lineup. Yet the confusing lineup could be turning off customers from that brand in the first place. When Lexus first debuted, they had zero reputation. They did a variety of things right to earn a great reputation, and one of those things was a clear, logical lineup naming scheme.
 
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IS-SV

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Or an assbackwards way to view Lincoln's alphabet soup naming convention is what if Mercedes, BMW, Lexus renamed all their cars like this:

MBC, MBE, MBS

BM3, BM5, BM7

LER, LEE, LEI, LEG, LEL

Not likely to be viewed favorably by car shopper/buyers...
 

mmcartalk

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Or an assbackwards way to view Lincoln's alphabet soup naming convention is what if Mercedes, BMW, Lexus renamed all their cars like this:

MBC, MBE, MBS

BM3, BM5, BM7

LER, LEE, LEI, LEG, LEL

Not likely to be viewed favorably by car shopper/buyers...

One of the best and simplest ways, IMO, to name a vehicle and avoid confusion (if one is not going to use simple straight dictionary names) is to do what Lexus and Mercedes do...one or two letters for the vehicle-line itself, and two or three number-digits for the engine size (in liters). Examples: ES350, C300, LS460, GL450, etc... That way, you know both the vehicle and the engine in one easy step. This system, IMO, should serve as a model for other automakers.
 

mikeavelli

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Perfectly said IS-IV, I completely agree. Just because different brands are tripping over themselves trying to implement ever-more-complicated alphabet soup naming schemes, doesn't mean it's a successful strategy. More importantly it is simply a clear example of the fact that some brands that use alphabet lineups do it noticeably better than other brands.

Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus have all had clear, logical alphabet lineups for a long time. That's starting to change a bit with Mercedes renaming various models to more confusing names. Otherwise this still holds true for those main luxury brands. The other lower-tier and near-luxury brands all have more confusing naming schemes. It also becomes a chicken and egg problem. Yes, for lesser brands, customers may not care to learn the confusing alphabet soup lineup. Yet the confusing lineup could be turning off customers from that brand in the first place. When Lexus first debuted, they had zero reputation. They did a variety of things right to earn a great reputation, and one of those things was a clear, logical lineup naming scheme.

Agreed here. Note how Mercedes has gone from S-class coupe to CL back to S-class coupe this year and consumers are not confused. Cause the bottom line is the product is outstanding which helps minimize any naming confusion.

Contrarily when these confused brands not only switch names, but styling directions and everything else in between there is nothing co-hesive outside of the brand name, etc which ends up not being co-hesive in regards to product and what it stands for.

Yes in essence the alphabet soup is what most leading luxury marques do but they are a LEADING marque for the PRODUCT, not the names. I think some companies think its the other way around, they will name the car some random name and people will buy it because it's trendy compared to a name. Meanwhile the name of the brand doesn't stand for much in the consumer so everything gets lost in the shuffle.

Note how Benz is in a transition changing names AGAIN (SUV's mostly) and it won't hurt sales or image much because the BRAND is strong. They can afford to risk changing names. Contrarily if your brand is not strong, you might need to keep your names "Legend" etc until your brand is strong enough and product strong enough to survive any changes.