CRSKTN

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LC F is marketing as much as it is a thing to sell. I would find it hard to believe we won't see it in some form or another. It will probably be some noncompetitive priced, extreme vehicle, but that is something marketing can work with.

Hybrid performance maybe? Who knows. I'm watching the world change with piqued curiosity.
 

Gecko

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I have said for a few months that I think the car is dead. Why?
  • They lost the moment - we're too far past the reveal to think it's going to have much of a media impact
  • Shift to CUVs/SUVs - this has been a struggle for the LC overall since the beginning
  • TTV8 is (always) taking too long to arrive - seems like something is wrong
  • If the rumors about no rear seats, rear mounted transaxle, etc. were all true, I think Lexus probably over-engineered this car and then realized it wasn't going to be viable because of what they developed, price and a combination of everything above. They should have thrown a 600+hp V8 under the hood, beefed up the suspension, upgraded the wheels, increased the brake size, massaged the body work with carbon fiber and priced it somewhere around $130k. It took them too long to try to completely re-engineer the car into something it isn't when all people really wanted was a higher performance LC.

The bigger concern to me is what happens to the F brand without an LC F? It seems hard to justify with GS F going away, no IS F, no LS F and the fact that turning the FWD products into F models would require hardware and engineering we haven't seen from Lexus. I wonder if as Lexus is weaning off RWD models, that could end F as well?
 

Sebass

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The bigger concern to me is what happens to the F brand without an LC F? It seems hard to justify with GS F going away, no IS F, no LS F and the fact that turning the FWD products into F models would require hardware and engineering we haven't seen from Lexus. I wonder if as Lexus is weaning off RWD models, that could end F as well?
I can't say if the F brand will die, but all the points you make are frighteningly eye-opening. Aside from F - Sport, it is so disappointing to see how little the F brand has grown. It is in no way a Lexus equivalent to RS, AMG, or M.
In F's 17 year lifespan, only 4 full F models have been produced, 3 of which use the same engine, 2 of which never got a successor, one of which is both massively slower than its competition as well as being killed off, and only 2 being true direct competitors to their German competition.
They are listed below in the year production started:
  1. 2007 IS F
  2. 2010 LFA
  3. 2014 RC F
  4. 2015 GS F
To Make a comparison between a German Performance division, let's look at Audi and their RS/S performance divisions, which were launched in 1990 with the S2 and continue to pump out models on the regular. All Audi RS/S cars produced in the first 17 years of the sub-brand are listed below in chronological order via the first year of production.
  1. 1990 Audi S2
  2. 1991 Audi 100 S4
  3. 1994 Audi RS4
  4. 1995 Audi S6
  5. 1996 Audi S8
  6. 1997 Audi S4
  7. 1999 Audi S6
  8. 1999 Audi S3
  9. 2000 Audi RS4 Avant
  10. 2002 Audi RS6
  11. 2003 Audi S4
  12. 2006 Audi RS4
  13. 2006 Audi S6
  14. 2006 Audi S8
  15. 2006 Audi S3.
  16. I know production started in 2007, but I might as well mention the R8 supercar.
So in the same span of time as the Lexus F brand has currently been alive, Audi produced 15 cars in their performance sub-brand if you don't count the R8. that's just under 4 times the amount of cars Lexus produced in the same span of time. WHAT THE HELL. I believe there was news from a higher up in Lexus a couple of months ago that the F brand was going to be expanded, and that is desperately needed. The F brand is years behind AMG, RS, and M.
 
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suxeL

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Riddle me this, are the global markets which are pushing sales to new levels for Lexus, not interested in an LC-F type vehicle?
 

Gecko

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I shared this in the "Future Lexus Product & Powertrain" thread, but I will share it here because if the LC F is indeed cancelled, I believe it met a very similar fate to Cadillac's Omega platform and Blackwing V8. As the world moved quickly away from passenger cars (slow sales of LC and LS) and companies had to tighten costs to prepare for a downturn (COVID), it probably became very hard to justify the LC F.

I could very well be wrong, but if we already had LF-1, it might have helped make the case for the LC F. Without a hypothetically more popular and higher volume GA-L based SUV, and considering such slow sales for the LS and LC, costs are driven up exponentially for new models using the same hardware - potentially making them impossible.

Road & Track: Why Cadillac Killed It's Landmark Blackwing V8 Engine
 

krew

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Japanese magazine Mag-X is reporting that development of the long-awaited Lexus LC F high-performance coupe has been cancelled.
No specific reason is given, though the magazine speculates that COVID-19 played a part in the decision, alongside the general lack of enthusiasm in cars over crossovers in the marketplace.
Mag-X believes the twin-turbo V8 that was to power the LC F will instead be offered on a minor change of the standard LC coupe. The engine could also be offered on North American Toyota trucks and SUVs, though it’s unclear which models would be a fit.
It should be said that this is simply a rumor, and is not necessarily true. Even so, I thought this auto-translated quote from the Mag-X was especially poetic:

Unfortunately, the high-performance sports of the highest peak of Lexus have become a phantom one…
Continue reading...


 

supra93

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According to A70TTR.


Development on basically everything stopped when Covid-19 hit hard. I've haven't been back to Japan in months (my usual home base) and am only working on stuff I can do remotely.

That's the world we live in right now.

The car was already delayed several times because of changes made to its design, some of which were pretty drastic. As things stood previously, we were already looking at 2023.
 

ssun30

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@Gecko 's analysis is spot on. Lexus once again tried to make the wrong car at the wrong time. They can't afford to make the same mistake again. Why is the GS-F a sales failure? It was a competitive car in 2010 but released in 2015. Why is 5LS a sales failure? It was competitive in 20l5 but released in 2018.

I remember Akio Toyoda commented 'it needs way more power' after he drove it. He was right. A 1900kg GT with 650hp isn't exactly news-worthy in 2021, not to mention a proper supercar. That's 10% less power-to-weight ratio than the LFA, and the LFA only has 'average' power-to-weight ratio for a supercar by today's standards. Starting with something as heavy as the LC isn't the smartest thing to do if their goal is making a track weapon. The program was too ambitious and became too expensive to justify.

The F-brand strategy needs a complete reset. Trying to play catch up is a dead end. They have to think about incorporating electrification into any future F product.
 

Levi

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@Gecko 's analysis is spot on. Lexus once again tried to make the wrong car at the wrong time. They can't afford to make the same mistake again. Why is the GS-F a sales failure? It was a competitive car in 2010 but released in 2015. Why is 5LS a sales failure? It was competitive in 20l5 but released in 2018.

I remember Akio Toyoda commented 'it needs way more power' after he drove it. He was right. A 1900kg GT with 650hp isn't exactly news-worthy in 2021, not to mention a proper supercar. That's 10% less power-to-weight ratio than the LFA, and the LFA only has 'average' power-to-weight ratio for a supercar by today's standards. Starting with something as heavy as the LC isn't the smartest thing to do if their goal is making a track weapon. The program was too ambitious and became too expensive to justify.

The F-brand strategy needs a complete reset. Trying to play catch up is a dead end. They have to think about incorporating electrification into any future F product.
If Lexus is always late, that is what they have to work on. Not new projects. Next gen. performance cars of BBA are all confirmed to be electrified. Lexus has to commit and be proactive, if they just sit, wait and look what is out there and then react, they will always be late, and will be relegated to selling luxurious FWD vehicles. True, no other brand does that. Citroen DS tries, but is not successful, not even in China.
 

bogglo

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After the debut of the new IS, I think it's safe to say that take every rumor as one. If it's not coming from Lexus it's paperweight. They took their secretiveness to another level on that one.

I don't think the LC F is cancelled maybe delayed is a better word.

I was thinking randomly, the F represent fuji raceway right? So with this new track what are the chances of getting a S sport lexus? Lol maybe all future 500 cars will be s sport and then the top of the line performance will be F.
 

Levi

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After the debut of the new IS, I think it's safe to say that take every rumor as one. If it's not coming from Lexus it's paperweight. They took their secretiveness to another level on that one.
I'd go even further saying if rumor is postive, then occurrence is negative, if rumor is negative, then occurrence is positive.

Evidence that this function is true can be seen with the latest example of new IS.

Rumors of TNGA-L ISF with TTV6 turned out false, rumors of facelifted IS with carryover engines turned out true.
 

Levi

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Wouldn't the Mag-X rumors about cancellation of LC F just be click(write)-bait?

I just can't see the Lexus lineup consisting of UX, NX, RX and the non-selling not even showroom sitting ES, LS and LC.
 

James

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Wouldn't the Mag-X rumors about cancellation of LC F just be click(write)-bait?

I just can't see the Lexus lineup consisting of UX, NX, RX and the non-selling not even showroom sitting ES, LS and LC.
Yeah the more I hear about Lexus cancelling products LCF or LF1 what the hell is left? You need models at the top end and not just the bread and butter or no one will take you seriously. I hope this new leader or whatever will show here soon as right now pretty disappointed in Lexus rt now.
 

krew

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Wouldn't the Mag-X rumors about cancellation of LC F just be click(write)-bait?

I just can't see the Lexus lineup consisting of UX, NX, RX and the non-selling not even showroom sitting ES, LS and LC.
Mag-X generates so many rumors that some are bound to be incorrect -- they have a pretty good track record in my opinion, but no outlet is infallible.

Also, I can totally see the Lexus lineup being ES/LS & UX/NX/RX. That's the direction we've been heading in for a while.
 
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I think these rumors are making the rounds because of the LC being withdrawn from the Nurburgring 24 hour race this year. The LC was going to be in it with the new TTV8 but Covid hysteria hit and shut everything down so they had no chance to develop it. So the reason for the withdraw of racing it is the covid and lack of testing. They also said that they would race it next year. The engine is already running in the car so why cancel it? These rumors make no sense at all to me. I think it's stemming from the lack of racing the new engined LC this year at the 'Ring.
 

ssun30

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One possibility is the original wording in Japanese was lost in translation.

"開発中止(Kaihatsuchuushi)" translates literally to 'stop development' in English. However, its true meaning is 'paused while in the middle of development'. In Chinese where the phrase comes from there are two expressions with the same pronounciation (Zhong Zhi): 1) 中止 or pause/put on hold 2) 终止 or stop/terminate. The second expression also has an equivalent in Japanese "終了(Shuuryo)". However, "中止" is used loosely in modern Japanese and it could mean 'pause' or 'terminate' depending on the context. If you were confused: when they say "中止" it could mean either, but when they say "終了" it definitely means "terminate".

The same goes for "急転直下(Kyuutenchokka)" which translates literally to "goes rapidly into conclusion". The "conclusion" could either be a positive one or a negative one. But the original Chinese expression “急转直下(Ji Zhuan Zhi Xia)” always means a negative result.

The magazines themselves are only the messenger, and thus they too could only interpret the original rumor based on their opinion. Only the source knows what the true meaning is.

It's not uncommon for Japanese people to use ambivalent expressions. Japanese is a very 'indirect' language where true meanings are often implied/open to interpretation instead of taken literally. It's related to the culture of 'be reserved and not talk in absolute terms'. However, they can be very strict and clear when they are doing business with foreigners which is a good thing.
 
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Sebass

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One possibility is the original wording in Japanese was lost in translation.

"開発中止(Kaihatsuchuushi)" translates literally to 'stop development' in English. However, its true meaning is 'paused while in the middle of development'. In Chinese where the phrase comes from there are two expressions with the same pronounciation (Zhong Zhi): 1) 中止 or pause/put on hold 2) 终止 or stop/terminate. The second expression also has an equivalent in Japanese "終了(Shuuryo)". However, "中止" is used loosely in modern Japanese and it could mean 'pause' or 'terminate' depending on the context. If you were confused: when they say "中止" it could mean either, but when they say "終了" it definitely means "terminate".

The same goes for "急転直下(Kyuutenchokka)" which translates literally to "goes rapidly into conclusion". The "conclusion" could either be a positive one or a negative one. But the original Chinese expression “急转直下(Ji Zhuan Zhi Xia)” always means a negative result.

The magazines themselves are only the messenger, and thus they too could only interpret the original rumor based on their opinion. Only the source knows what the true meaning is.

It's not uncommon for Japanese people to use ambivalent expressions. Japanese is a very 'indirect' language where true meanings are often implied/open to interpretation instead of taken literally. It's related to the culture of 'be reserved and not talk in absolute terms'. However, they can be very strict and clear when they are doing business with foreigners which is a good thing.
P2_czr.gif
 
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One possibility is the original wording in Japanese was lost in translation.

"開発中止(Kaihatsuchuushi)" translates literally to 'stop development' in English. However, its true meaning is 'paused while in the middle of development'. In Chinese where the phrase comes from there are two expressions with the same pronounciation (Zhong Zhi): 1) 中止 or pause/put on hold 2) 终止 or stop/terminate. The second expression also has an equivalent in Japanese "終了(Shuuryo)". However, "中止" is used loosely in modern Japanese and it could mean 'pause' or 'terminate' depending on the context. If you were confused: when they say "中止" it could mean either, but when they say "終了" it definitely means "terminate".

The same goes for "急転直下(Kyuutenchokka)" which translates literally to "goes rapidly into conclusion". The "conclusion" could either be a positive one or a negative one. But the original Chinese expression “急转直下(Ji Zhuan Zhi Xia)” always means a negative result.

The magazines themselves are only the messenger, and thus they too could only interpret the original rumor based on their opinion. Only the source knows what the true meaning is.

It's not uncommon for Japanese people to use ambivalent expressions. Japanese is a very 'indirect' language where true meanings are often implied/open to interpretation instead of taken literally. It's related to the culture of 'be reserved and not talk in absolute terms'. However, they can be very strict and clear when they are doing business with foreigners which is a good thing.
This. ^^

If there's anyone that's triggered at the lack of response from Toyota and Lexus engineers when it comes to future projects, @ssun30 broke it down to a science. I'm pretty sure we already knew what their general demeanor is but I still appreciate this breakdown. We should always look back at this whenever we're quickly pissed from the responses that we get from Toyota Motor Corporation. A lot of stuff gets lost in meaning. Even some insiders who are native Japanese speakers sometimes struggle with translating some things to people like us because there are always a lot of things that gets lost in translation.
 
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