Official Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain/Product Discussion

F1 Silver Arrows

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I don't think any of these things are excuses anymore.

1. TNGA development has been a big deal, but it seems to be all "Toyota-first" with Lexus as an afterthought. In most other organizations, premium products and brands launch the latest and greatest which later trickles down to mainstream products and brands. GA-L seems like a "pie in the sky" pet project platform for LS and LC alone. TTV6 is underwhelming. Outdated AWD system. Camry and Avalon debut before ES. Rav4 debuts before NX. Toyota gets everything first. TNGA has lit Toyota on fire while Lexus is still spinning in a corner.

2. How much longer can we make excuses about the earthquake? Yes, it disrupted production, but that is years in the rearview at this point and doesn't speak to all of the current product planning struggles.

3. I understand the dispute with China, but did all of their product planning and development come to a standstill for that reason alone? Political uncertainty is part of the game.

4. At this point, I actually believe it is Akio who has hurt Lexus more than any president before. He has been overseeing this ship since 2009 - when we had exciting products like IS F and LFA, and a stronger, overall more competitive lineup. Over a decade, Lexus has crumbled under his leadership. One positive is global expansion, yes, but the product has suffered terribly.

5. Lexus was once the envy of the industry with luxury SUVs and look where they are now. They were too slow to react with NX, UX is a joke, RX has slipped and the other two are a decade old. LQ is already late - Lexus has been toying with the idea of a premium RWD unibody crossover since 2003 and we are still two years out? In the meantime, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have used their resources to EXPAND their sedan lineups at nearly every level - while simultaneously blowing out their SUV lineups.

Lexus is quite simply lost. We have all been willing to cut them some slack for what seems like multiple "reset" periods, but after more than a decade of missteps and poor product planning, I think it's clear that better days are behind us. The weirdest part? Toyota's future has never looked brighter than it does right now.
Number 4? Wrong. He has brought the most success to the company than anyone else. Period. I don't even want to explain why because his efforts don't require any explanation. That's how good he is. But for the sake of discussion, i'll produce a list.

- Avid motorsport enthusiast, brought TMC to fight against the likes of Porsche, Audi, Ferrari, Mercedes, Lamborghini, and Bentley.

- Motorsports = Good cars. Simple as that. There are so many things motorsports can do for the benefit of the company. It's an absolute win-win situation for people who adore racing like Toyoda-san and myself, as well as the company who can accelerate their development and making their products much better.

- Helped increase and skyrocket sales and most of all made Toyota's and Lexus vehicles relevant.

- His amazing leadership helped TMC to sail cleanly through controversies over the years and held his company high even during a horrifying economic downturn or even a recession.

- He will forever be known as the one who banished "boring" with Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

- Allowed cash flow to emotional projects like racing, other niche vehicles, further electrification, hybridization, developing on revolutionary fuel cell and green technology, and yup, sports cars. Let's not forget he started a company for develop and create mobility products like better than ever self-driving technology.

- This is just a small subsection of what this man has done. Most of all, his charisma, his love for the brand, for the people, is beyond measure. He is single-handedly one of the best or if not, the best CEO of all time.

Your other points are valid though.


Be mad at the other idiots (bean counters and marketing) who are f*cking up this company. Someone needs to take our messages and show them to executives as only then they will be able to understand. @Carmaker1. I know you don't work for Toyota/Lexus, but do some of the comments here really represent what the situation is like at TMC? Or is it all blown up and everything is fine?
 

flexus

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Number 4? Wrong. He has brought the most success to the company than anyone else. Period. I don't even want to explain why because his efforts don't require any explanation. That's how good he is. But for the sake of discussion, i'll produce a list.

- Avid motorsport enthusiast, brought TMC to fight against the likes of Porsche, Audi, Ferrari, Mercedes, Lamborghini, and Bentley.

- Motorsports = Good cars. Simple as that. There are so many things motorsports can do for the benefit of the company. It's an absolute win-win situation for people who adore racing like Toyoda-san and myself, as well as the company who can accelerate their development and making their products much better.

- Helped increase and skyrocket sales and most of all made Toyota's and Lexus vehicles relevant.

- His amazing leadership helped TMC to sail cleanly through controversies over the years and held his company high even during a horrifying economic downturn or even a recession.

- He will forever be known as the one who banished "boring" with Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

- Allowed cash flow to emotional projects like racing, other niche vehicles, further electrification, hybridization, developing on revolutionary fuel cell and green technology, and yup, sports cars. Let's not forget he started a company for develop and create mobility products like better than ever self-driving technology.

- This is just a small subsection of what this man has done. Most of all, his charisma, his love for the brand, for the people, is beyond measure. He is single-handedly one of the best or if not, the best CEO of all time.

Your other points are valid though.


Be mad at the other idiots (bean counters and marketing) who are f*cking up this company. Someone needs to take our messages and show them to executives as only then they will be able to understand. @Carmaker1. I know you don't work for Toyota/Lexus, but do some of the comments here really represent what the situation is like at TMC? Or is it all blown rup and everything is fine?
A few years back I was travelling by train from Madrid to Toledo. I overheard a conversation between my mother and a Spanish economist who had sat next to her. He talked about how great Toyota's working culture was and how it made the company so productive. It was made by Toyoda-san. This is true. Toyota summons every other year (correct me if wrong) employees all over the world to participate in a marathon in Toyota, Aichi and CEO himself runs alongside them. As you mentioned how Toyoda-san directed resources to motorsport I would like to tell my experience about this: I was watching the final day of Hakone ekiden on TV. Before the finish line, a white Century (white colour is not offered for consumers) started to follow the top runner. Later car media found out that it was Century GRMN, one in the world built just for Akio Toyoda. I think he's one of the greatest company leaders alive in Japan alongside Masayoshi Son and Takafumi Horie.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I firmly believe that without Akio there'd be no LC and the RC would've been discontinued by now. And say what you will about Lexus' current lineup, it'd be a lot less interesting without those two.

I will agree with Gecko on one major point though: Toyota itself is in fantastic shape, better than Lexus. They've got the 86 and Supra to show to people who claim they're boring, they outfoxed Honda by keeping the V6 in the Camry, and the RAV4 is basically a license to print money.

At this point, I just want to see the same execution on upcoming Lexus models that we're getting on Toyotas. New IS F with an A35A? Yes. AWD ES with that stereo thing fixed? Yes. New NX, RX, GX, and LX? Yes. LQ? Damn right. LC Convertible? Bring it.
 

Gecko

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Number 4? Wrong. He has brought the most success to the company than anyone else. Period. I don't even want to explain why because his efforts don't require any explanation. That's how good he is. But for the sake of discussion, i'll produce a list.

- Avid motorsport enthusiast, brought TMC to fight against the likes of Porsche, Audi, Ferrari, Mercedes, Lamborghini, and Bentley.

- Motorsports = Good cars. Simple as that. There are so many things motorsports can do for the benefit of the company. It's an absolute win-win situation for people who adore racing like Toyoda-san and myself, as well as the company who can accelerate their development and making their products much better.

- Helped increase and skyrocket sales and most of all made Toyota's and Lexus vehicles relevant.

- His amazing leadership helped TMC to sail cleanly through controversies over the years and held his company high even during a horrifying economic downturn or even a recession.

- He will forever be known as the one who banished "boring" with Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

- Allowed cash flow to emotional projects like racing, other niche vehicles, further electrification, hybridization, developing on revolutionary fuel cell and green technology, and yup, sports cars. Let's not forget he started a company for develop and create mobility products like better than ever self-driving technology.

- This is just a small subsection of what this man has done. Most of all, his charisma, his love for the brand, for the people, is beyond measure. He is single-handedly one of the best or if not, the best CEO of all time.

Your other points are valid though.
Most of your list may be true, but I still don't see how any of this has translated to a fundamentally better Lexus product than what we had before Akio's reign. Maybe ES because we now have F Sport, TNGA-K and soon, AWD.

Akio has had some wonderful impacts on the company as a leader, but I do not personally think Lexus has reaped any benefit of his management. There is no point where I look at the lineup and say, "Wow, compared to previous models, the competition and context, Lexus has really moved ahead." Everything is status quo or "just enough" aside from LC.

At NAIAS two years ago, Akio debuted the Toyota Camry and didn't even show up at the Lexus booth for the 5LS world premiere. I think that said a lot.
 

MichaelL

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We are talking about Lexus right? Only growing luxury brand in 2019 in the USA?

I am testing Mazda CX-5 tomorrow, wish me luck.
CX-5 is nice, I think you will like it. Try the turbo version, I haven't driven that one yet. Should be better with the extra power.
 

F1 Silver Arrows

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Most of your list may be true, but I still don't see how any of this has translated to a fundamentally better Lexus product than what we had before Akio's reign. Maybe ES because we now have F Sport, TNGA-K and soon, AWD.

Akio has had some wonderful impacts on the company as a leader, but I do not personally think Lexus has reaped any benefit of his management. There is no point where I look at the lineup and say, "Wow, compared to previous models, the competition and context, Lexus has really moved ahead." Everything is status quo or "just enough" aside from LC.

At NAIAS two years ago, Akio debuted the Toyota Camry and didn't even show up at the Lexus booth for the 5LS world premiere. I think that said a lot.
Change takes a lot of time. His influence will show soon.
 

ssun30

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Edited. I said there's no need to beat the dead horse yet I participate in the beating.

Anyway time to get back to topic. One thing I am still wondering is when they are going to update USDM Dynamic Force engines with the latest software. Sure 5-7hp doesn't really make a difference but aren't americans complaining Toyota never do power bumps like european competitors do? 176hp sounds much better than 168 even though the UX200 will just be as slow as ever.
 
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spwolf

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Edited. I said there's no need to beat the dead horse yet I participate in the beating.

Anyway time to get back to topic. One thing I am still wondering is when they are going to update USDM Dynamic Force engines with the latest software. Sure 5-7hp doesn't really make a difference but aren't americans complaining Toyota never do power bumps like european competitors do? 176hp sounds much better than 168 even though the UX200 will just be as slow as ever.
they wont... same engine makes different numbers worldwide already, and as you say difference wont be noticed anyway.
 

Will1991

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I love Toyota and what Akyo has managed to do within Toyota but Lexus does need to fresh up a lot in the engine bay, specially for USA!
Here in Europe we are not so bad:
-UX250h has a brand new engine and platform (hasn't seen one)
- IS300h isn't very bad on fuel economy despite their age and "end of life"
-RC300h had a very classy refresh
-ES300h is quite gorgeous, the seats look amazing and this new powertrain is quite efficient
-LS/LC are as good as they can get (I really don't understand how someone choose a german, they are all the same, nothing new... It's almost as a 911 in terms of overall design)

For me the weaker one is the NX, this SUV will have a hard time... Just seeing has Lexus product planning is doing lately, it still has some years in it....
RX never really picked up around here...

Almost all of them being built on Toyota's chassis, I don't see it has a bad thing. It's even the opposite, it's a plus for the costumer (better prices, everything is tested by a broader market)!

Where Lexus is really trailing behind everyone is on PHVE's and BEV's.... There isn't any other competition without any or both...
 

flexus

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I love Toyota and what Akyo has managed to do within Toyota but Lexus does need to fresh up a lot in the engine bay, specially for USA!
Here in Europe we are not so bad:
-UX250h has a brand new engine and platform (hasn't seen one)
- IS300h isn't very bad on fuel economy despite their age and "end of life"
-RC300h had a very classy refresh
-ES300h is quite gorgeous, the seats look amazing and this new powertrain is quite efficient
-LS/LC are as good as they can get (I really don't understand how someone choose a german, they are all the same, nothing new... It's almost as a 911 in terms of overall design)

For me the weaker one is the NX, this SUV will have a hard time... Just seeing has Lexus product planning is doing lately, it still has some years in it....
RX never really picked up around here...

Almost all of them being built on Toyota's chassis, I don't see it has a bad thing. It's even the opposite, it's a plus for the costumer (better prices, everything is tested by a broader market)!

Where Lexus is really trailing behind everyone is on PHVE's and BEV's.... There isn't any other competition without any or both...
Lexus needs PHEV ASAP like within in a year. RX and ES PHEV could boost sales much. BEV is not so big consern just get some prototypes for autoshows, maube UX BEV in 2020 or 2021.
 

spwolf

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Lexus needs PHEV ASAP like within in a year. RX and ES PHEV could boost sales much. BEV is not so big consern just get some prototypes for autoshows, maube UX BEV in 2020 or 2021.
maybe in some markets where there are large incentives, but where there are no incentives, nobody buys PHEVs... they make no sense at all in general sense and especially with German companies that use single motor hybrids that are not that efficient when out of electricity.

In general, TMC is so ahead of everyone in Europe, which is why their sales and profit in EU will continue to increase. Diesels are dying due to legislation and fear of it while only TMC has real hybrids on the market, with very low CO2 compared to diesels.
 

flexus

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maybe in some markets where there are large incentives, but where there are no incentives, nobody buys PHEVs... they make no sense at all in general sense and especially with German companies that use single motor hybrids that are not that efficient when out of electricity.

In general, TMC is so ahead of everyone in Europe, which is why their sales and profit in EU will continue to increase. Diesels are dying due to legislation and fear of it while only TMC has real hybrids on the market, with very low CO2 compared to diesels.
I agree that no one would buy them. Volvo having so much PHEVs doesn't sell them well because they suck. Even in Sweden Outlander outsold them since it has superior PHEV system. Lexus and Toyota need more PHEVs and one BEV for brand image. And also TMC is only car maker whose fleet emissions are below 99g co2/km. It will further go down because there was no Avensis hybrid and it's replacement Corolla and Camry have three hybrid motors and downsizing turbo. Nissan, Honda and Mazda need PHEVs and hybrids to lower their fleet emissions. I think EU should calculate emissions by average of cars sold not cars in lineup. Toyota and Lexus would have much lower emissions and Europeans would skyrocket.
 

flexus

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As of diesel technology, I think only "clean diesels" in the market are MB's and Mazda's. In fact diesel sales have grown in Germany and Japan.
 

Will1991

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maybe in some markets where there are large incentives, but where there are no incentives, nobody buys PHEVs... they make no sense at all in general sense and especially with German companies that use single motor hybrids that are not that efficient when out of electricity.

In general, TMC is so ahead of everyone in Europe, which is why their sales and profit in EU will continue to increase. Diesels are dying due to legislation and fear of it while only TMC has real hybrids on the market, with very low CO2 compared to diesels.
German solutions for PHEV's has been so badly engineered (I'm trying to be polite) cars next to TMC PHEV (in the Prime)… It almost makes me mad Lexus still hasn't got anything... It's not for lack of integration or any technical challenge (it's even available with a boxer engine for Subaru), it seems they just choose not to build something a lot better than all of the competition.
 

Ian Schmidt

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Akio has had some wonderful impacts on the company as a leader, but I do not personally think Lexus has reaped any benefit of his management. There is no point where I look at the lineup and say, "Wow, compared to previous models, the competition and context, Lexus has really moved ahead." Everything is status quo or "just enough" aside from LC.

At NAIAS two years ago, Akio debuted the Toyota Camry and didn't even show up at the Lexus booth for the 5LS world premiere. I think that said a lot.
At the risk of being too on the nose, his name is on Toyota. It's not on Lexus, although he's clearly willing to let them do crazy things like the LC when they ask. Lexus needs someone who'll ask more often.
 

flexus

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Saw A3 sedan today. It's basically rebadged Škoda Octavia. So I thought: Could Toyota make next gen CT sedan/HS based on new Corolla sedan. Maybe with UX powertrain.
 

F1 Silver Arrows

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At the risk of being too on the nose, his name is on Toyota. It's not on Lexus, although he's clearly willing to let them do crazy things like the LC when they ask. Lexus needs someone who'll ask more often.
He did say his middle name is Lexus when he released the LC in Detroit 2016. He got many laughs out of that one LOL.
 

carguy420

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As of diesel technology, I think only "clean diesels" in the market are MB's and Mazda's. In fact diesel sales have grown in Germany and Japan.
Mazda is still very committed to diesel engines and they are going debut the 2nd generation Skyactiv D in 2020. Hopefully Mazda will able to capture more sales from the diesel fans.
 

isanatori

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Mazda is still very committed to diesel engines and they are going debut the 2nd generation Skyactiv D in 2020. Hopefully Mazda will able to capture more sales from the diesel fans.
Speaking of Europe, all diesel cars are clean.
Since 2015, EU reaction was
German Industry pay the fines to their state (which actually help, or own part of the dieselgate manufacturers, which means money returns to the same coffins!). It's a scheme worthy of their tradition and culture.

EU Commission drafted, diesel cars earn the EURO 6 label, without passing the EURO 6 standards!
Currently EURO 6 diesels are EURO 2 in reality.
A few months earlier, European institution Court of Justice found EU Comission guilty for that reason, but Commission keeps masquerading the standards, because nobody can touch them.

It is an irony, 20 year old naturally aspirated Toyotas with 200+ k miles emitting less human harmful emissions than "clean diesels" !

"clean diesels" will have to use a large portion of their efficiency to deal with emissions. Which means they have to find a balance among slow response, pedestrian acceleration and diesel thirsty engines. Diesel cars will become even less appealing.

Who is determined to lose market share? The Germans?
 
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