ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,524
Reactions
7,753
The trick transmission in the LC 500h (is it in the LS, I am actually not sure) is glorious, a work of art. As a previous GS 450h owner with the CVT it was cool but it wasn't an enthusiasts transmission at all. The LC 500h is mind blowing in comparison.

How do you feel about the multi-stage in real driving? I just find it really weird that it uses nine gears to get to 270km/h. The ratios are so close it feels like a rally car transmission. That's the trick they use to make it faster than the 600h system which had 90hp more on paper.

It would be amazing if they swap out the 8GR for the V35A-FTS. They wouldn't need those hilariously short gears to get very fast acceleration.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
7,058
Reactions
15,673
How do you feel about the multi-stage in real driving? I just find it really weird that it uses nine gears to get to 270km/h. The ratios are so close it feels like a rally car transmission. That's the trick they use to make it faster than the 600h system which had 90hp more on paper.

It would be amazing if they swap out the 8GR for the V35A-FTS. They wouldn't need those hilariously short gears to get very fast acceleration.

Whereas other Lexus hybrids have CVTs which are smooth and simulate gears, this actually has gears, I believe 1-4. Makes a giant difference in feel. A RXh owner likely woudn't care but in a great handling car like the LC it matches its character amazingly. This is technology that gets hardly any shine in an age where all people care about is Apple Car Play and thinks that is technology.

The LC also lacks that annoying CVT whir and sound. I am a huge fan.
 

flexus

Admirer
Messages
532
Reactions
893
The ICE is different. 450h uses the 2GR-FXE, which is port-injection only on the RX and D-4S dual-injection on the GS. 500h uses the 8GR-FXS which has a slight efficiency bump vs the 2GR-FXE.

Also when talking about PS hybrids there is no such concept as a traditional transmission. The hybrid system IS the transmission. The older 450h is a PSD coupled to a Ravigenaux gear set making a two-stage hybrid system. The 500h is a PSD coupled to two planetary gear sets making a four-stage hybrid system. There is no CVT in a PS hybrid, it just behaves like a CVT. The multi-stage is not a CVT mated to a 4AT, it behaves like that.
It's just that Toyota uses these terminologies to make it easier to understand for the general public.
Okay. So is the 250h more quicker than 300h because this hybrid transmission works better?
 

carguy420

Admirer
Messages
844
Reactions
1,119
I've heard people complain about the multi-stage hybrid acting a little strange and inconsistent, something to do with the tuning or just personal preference?
 
Messages
29
Reactions
20
I am probably going to get blasted for posting under the "wrong" thread, but what are the chances that the TNGA Tacoma and Hilux will essentially be the same vehicle? I mean it is "global" architecture. Also, what about the Tacoma and 4Runner? Any chance of them being closely related, including powertrains? I know the Tacoma and 4Runner used to be really closely related, and it would make sense for the Tacoma and Hilux to be twins because they needn't have 2 small trucks...
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
I am probably going to get blasted for posting under the "wrong" thread, but what are the chances that the TNGA Tacoma and Hilux will essentially be the same vehicle? I mean it is "global" architecture. Also, what about the Tacoma and 4Runner? Any chance of them being closely related, including powertrains? I know the Tacoma and 4Runner used to be really closely related, and it would make sense for the Tacoma and Hilux to be twins because they needn't have 2 small trucks...

There is a thread on this, I think in The Garage, but Toyota is developing a modular BOF architecture that has been referred to TNGA-F. This will be like the FWD and RWD TNGA architectures that are scaleable and share a lot of parts/engines/technology.

So I think there is a good chance that Tacoma, 4Runner, Hilux, Fortuner, Land Cruiser Prado, GX and some of the other "midsize-ish" BOF vehicles will be closely related.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

Moderator
Messages
1,529
Reactions
2,434
There is a thread on this, I think in The Garage, but Toyota is developing a modular BOF architecture that has been referred to TNGA-F. This will be like the FWD and RWD TNGA architectures that are scaleable and share a lot of parts/engines/technology.

So I think there is a good chance that Tacoma, 4Runner, Hilux, Fortuner, Land Cruiser Prado, GX and some of the other "midsize-ish" BOF vehicles will be closely related.
TNGA-F should be scalable enough that even the largest Toyota and Lexus BOF vehicles (Tundra, Land Cruiser 300 and Lexus LX) are expected to use this architecture as well.
 

mordecai

Follower
Messages
150
Reactions
409
Seriously, I just want to know — who to be blamed for Lexus’ poor product planning the last in the 8-10 years? There should be people let go for this, they are slow to respond to market changes, and really make it hard for anyone, even enthusiasts to be excited about the direction of the brand.

The LS seems like a total dud.
The GS is dead or dying.
The IS is dead last in its segment in desirability, and this was clear from when it was first unveiled.
The ES is solid, but sales seem to be lackluster.
The GX and LX are approaching a decade long or more product cycle. They are still very solid products though.
The RX is feeling a bit dated already and the RX-L planning was botched.
The NX is in need of a mid cycle refresh.
The UX is a missed opportunity.
The LF/LQ is taking too long to arrive.
The RC-F Track Edition is a good surprise, and the redesign is one of Lexus’ recent successes.

The company/brand seems confused in its direction, if it even has one. Meanwhile the German cars are churning out updates and new models every month.

Honestly, a small company like Mazda excites me so much more than Lexus right now.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,524
Reactions
7,753
Seriously, I just want to know — who to be blamed for Lexus’ poor product planning the last in the 8-10 years? There should be people let go for this, they are slow to respond to market changes, and really make it hard for anyone, even enthusiasts to be excited about the direction of the brand.

No need to beat the dead horse over and over again. In short five things happened:

1) Their mother company was pouring money into TNGA to revolutionize the company, which spread their resources thin. Most of the lackluster models we see are from the five years it took to make the transition.
2) Tohoku Earthquake crippled the entirety of Japan and its future. Imagine how well the German brands will do if a nuke was dropped on Stuttgart.
3) Territorial dispute with China reset their brand presence in the country. They have to start from scratch in the biggest auto market in the world. Imagine how well the German brands will do if Trump charges a 100% tariff overnight.
4) Akio Toyoda had to fight a power struggle to make sure the brand goes according to his vision. For the first time the company is lead by someone who doesn't count beans and actually loves cars. But it takes years to see the effect of his leadership.
5) Crossover booming, sedans dying.
 
Last edited:

flexus

Admirer
Messages
532
Reactions
893
No need to beat the dead horse over and over again. In short five things happened:

1) Their mother company was pouring money into TNGA to revolutionize the company, which spread their resources thin. Most of the lackluster models we see are from the five years it took to make the transition.
2) Tohoku Earthquake crippled the entirety of Japan and its future. Imagine how well the German brands will do if a nuke was dropped on Stuttgart.
3) Territorial dispute with China reset their brand presence in the country. They have to start from scratch in the biggest auto market in the world. Imagine how well the German brands will do if Trump charges a 100% tariff overnight.
4) Akio Toyoda had to fight a power struggle to make sure the brand goes according to his vision. For the first time the company is lead by someone who doesn't count beans and actually loves cars. But it takes years to see the effect of his leadership.
5) Crossover booming, sedans dying.
I completely agree. I remember visiting China in 2012 and people were putting stickers to Japanese cars that said "Diayou belongs to China". Also the earthquake was biggest reason Japanese brands didn't go for EVs but sought for alternatives like FCEV.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
Seriously, I just want to know — who to be blamed for Lexus’ poor product planning the last in the 8-10 years? There should be people let go for this, they are slow to respond to market changes, and really make it hard for anyone, even enthusiasts to be excited about the direction of the brand.

The LS seems like a total dud.
The GS is dead or dying.
The IS is dead last in its segment in desirability, and this was clear from when it was first unveiled.
The ES is solid, but sales seem to be lackluster.
The GX and LX are approaching a decade long or more product cycle. They are still very solid products though.
The RX is feeling a bit dated already and the RX-L planning was botched.
The NX is in need of a mid cycle refresh.
The UX is a missed opportunity.
The LF/LQ is taking too long to arrive.
The RC-F Track Edition is a good surprise, and the redesign is one of Lexus’ recent successes.

The company/brand seems confused in its direction, if it even has one. Meanwhile the German cars are churning out updates and new models every month.

Honestly, a small company like Mazda excites me so much more than Lexus right now.

It has happened slowly over a decade so it's hard to find one defining point where things changed, but I think for all of our hope and optimism (and my complaining), it's time to level set with what is the "new Lexus." We had ~17 years of focus on quality and craftsmanship - and craftsmanship that included powertrains and first-rate engineering on products like LS, GS, SC, IS and LFA.

What does the Lexus of today stand for? Luxury? Design? Performance? F? Hybrids? Reliability? Craftsmanship? Engineering? Driving pleasure? Value? A lifestyle brand? All are buzzwords we've seen thrown around over the last 13 years with no sticking point or enduring North Star.

So, with no direction and an obvious lack of focus, Lexus has just become a profit operation for Toyota. Not that Lexus wasn't profit earning before, but in the decades past, Toyota was willing to invest significantly in Lexus to bring the brand into new segments and heights. It is clear that at this stage, Toyota is not willing to invest in Lexus at a level that will keep parity with BMW, Mercedes and other Tier 1 brands. I believe that over time, this will hurt Lexus and result in LOWER profitability, brand awareness and brand engagement, but Toyota seems pretty set on their current direction. It is also a direction we've seen Acura and Infiniti take, and it will be difficult to watch Lexus follow the same path, but we already are.

All of your points above show that we are looking at a brand that is fundamentally different from the same company that delivered products like the LS 400, LS 430, GS 300/400/430, SC 300/400, SC 430, 2IS 250/350, IS F and LFA. There is no clarity, and it's hard to find any one product where you could say that Lexus is class leading - or a model that embodies Lexus.

It is very sad, but I am done hoping or expecting that Lexus will ever return to its former glory - or even identity.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
No need to beat the dead horse over and over again. In short five things happened:

1) Their mother company was pouring money into TNGA to revolutionize the company, which spread their resources thin. Most of the lackluster models we see are from the five years it took to make the transition.
2) Tohoku Earthquake crippled the entirety of Japan and its future. Imagine how well the German brands will do if a nuke was dropped on Stuttgart.
3) Territorial dispute with China reset their brand presence in the country. They have to start from scratch in the biggest auto market in the world. Imagine how well the German brands will do if Trump charges a 100% tariff overnight.
4) Akio Toyoda had to fight a power struggle to make sure the brand goes according to his vision. For the first time the company is lead by someone who doesn't count beans and actually loves cars. But it takes years to see the effect of his leadership.
5) Crossover booming, sedans dying.


I don't think any of these things are excuses anymore.

1. TNGA development has been a big deal, but it seems to be all "Toyota-first" with Lexus as an afterthought. In most other organizations, premium products and brands launch the latest and greatest which later trickles down to mainstream products and brands. GA-L seems like a "pie in the sky" pet project platform for LS and LC alone. TTV6 is underwhelming. Outdated AWD system. Camry and Avalon debut before ES. Rav4 debuts before NX. Toyota gets everything first. TNGA has lit Toyota on fire while Lexus is still spinning in a corner.

2. How much longer can we make excuses about the earthquake? Yes, it disrupted production, but that is years in the rearview at this point and doesn't speak to all of the current product planning struggles.

3. I understand the dispute with China, but did all of their product planning and development come to a standstill for that reason alone? Political uncertainty is part of the game.

4. At this point, I actually believe it is Akio who has hurt Lexus more than any president before. He has been overseeing this ship since 2009 - when we had exciting products like IS F and LFA, and a stronger, overall more competitive lineup. Over a decade, Lexus has crumbled under his leadership. One positive is global expansion, yes, but the product has suffered terribly.

5. Lexus was once the envy of the industry with luxury SUVs and look where they are now. They were too slow to react with NX, UX is a joke, RX has slipped and the other two are a decade old. LQ is already late - Lexus has been toying with the idea of a premium RWD unibody crossover since 2003 and we are still two years out? In the meantime, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have used their resources to EXPAND their sedan lineups at nearly every level - while simultaneously blowing out their SUV lineups.

Lexus is quite simply lost. We have all been willing to cut them some slack for what seems like multiple "reset" periods, but after more than a decade of missteps and poor product planning, I think it's clear that better days are behind us. The weirdest part? Toyota's future has never looked brighter than it does right now.
 

MichaelL

Follower
Messages
111
Reactions
189
I don't think any of these things are excuses anymore.

1. TNGA development has been a big deal, but it seems to be all "Toyota-first" with Lexus as an afterthought. In most other organizations, premium products and brands launch the latest and greatest which later trickles down to mainstream products and brands. GA-L seems like a "pie in the sky" pet project platform for LS and LC alone. TTV6 is underwhelming. Outdated AWD system. Camry and Avalon debut before ES. Rav4 debuts before NX. Toyota gets everything first. TNGA has lit Toyota on fire while Lexus is still spinning in a corner.

2. How much longer can we make excuses about the earthquake? Yes, it disrupted production, but that is years in the rearview at this point and doesn't speak to all of the current product planning struggles.

3. I understand the dispute with China, but did all of their product planning and development come to a standstill for that reason alone? Political uncertainty is part of the game.

4. At this point, I actually believe it is Akio who has hurt Lexus more than any president before. He has been overseeing this ship since 2009 - when we had exciting products like IS F and LFA, and a stronger, overall more competitive lineup. Over a decade, Lexus has crumbled under his leadership. One positive is global expansion, yes, but the product has suffered terribly.

5. Lexus was once the envy of the industry with luxury SUVs and look where they are now. They were too slow to react with NX, UX is a joke, RX has slipped and the other two are a decade old. LQ is already late - Lexus has been toying with the idea of a premium RWD unibody crossover since 2003 and we are still two years out? In the meantime, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have used their resources to EXPAND their sedan lineups at nearly every level - while simultaneously blowing out their SUV lineups.

Lexus is quite simply lost. We have all been willing to cut them some slack for what seems like multiple "reset" periods, but after more than a decade of missteps and poor product planning, I think it's clear that better days are behind us. The weirdest part? Toyota's future has never looked brighter than it does right now.

You are on it! Lexus has been lost, very slow with new products and uncompetitive in many categories. It is a shame, they should be in with the tier 1 manufacturers. Largest auto company in the world, they should have Lexus competing in all segments. Great cars with outstanding reliability. I still have faith that is why I am here! Cmon Lexus get it together put out some new products, don't follow the path of Acura or Infinity into irrelevance! There is a place for Lexus in the market, reliability still matters, people want options, if you make great stuff customers will come, it is not too late to change course...
 

MichaelL

Follower
Messages
111
Reactions
189
It's sad to say that I think that the only Lexus vehicles in the current lineup that can actually compete with its German competitors are the LC and LS. Every other model is waaaay behind imo.
True, because those are the only ones that aren't super dated... the RX is decent, the UX should do fine, the others? Way too old, where are the replacements? Who was doing the product planning? Anyone?
 

internalaudit

Expert
Messages
1,152
Reactions
1,139
Hopefully Lexus can distinguish itself with fun enough to drive BEVs.

If by 2023/24 there is still not definite date, I may go with a German BEV since most of the issues that are expensive to fix rest on the engine and transmission anyway and the BEV will have a much simpler design.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,536
Reactions
3,452
Seriously, I just want to know — who to be blamed for Lexus’ poor product planning the last in the 8-10 years? There should be people let go for this, they are slow to respond to market changes, and really make it hard for anyone, even enthusiasts to be excited about the direction of the brand.

The LS seems like a total dud.
The GS is dead or dying.
The IS is dead last in its segment in desirability, and this was clear from when it was first unveiled.
The ES is solid, but sales seem to be lackluster.
The GX and LX are approaching a decade long or more product cycle. They are still very solid products though.
The RX is feeling a bit dated already and the RX-L planning was botched.
The NX is in need of a mid cycle refresh.
The UX is a missed opportunity.
The LF/LQ is taking too long to arrive.
The RC-F Track Edition is a good surprise, and the redesign is one of Lexus’ recent successes.

The company/brand seems confused in its direction, if it even has one. Meanwhile the German cars are churning out updates and new models every month.

Honestly, a small company like Mazda excites me so much more than Lexus right now.


We are talking about Lexus right? Only growing luxury brand in 2019 in the USA?

I am testing Mazda CX-5 tomorrow, wish me luck.