Official Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain/Product Discussion

spwolf

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Ok what you said may have some truth in it. Test results for the GAC C-HR and FAW Izoa don't look good, at all. With the 168hp M20A the car still takes an appalling 10.8s to do 0-100km/h and 17.5s to do 0-400m. So with 37hp more it's outrun by the 131hp 1.5L Honda XR-V by a comfortable margin (which does 10.1s and 16.9s respectively). And it's slower than every ~150hp 1.5T mid-size SUV that is at least one class above its weight. According the reviews the launch gear doesn't do s**t and the transmission almost instantly switches to belt drive. The launch gear was supposed to provide enough torque multiplication to even cause wheelspin but no matter how hard they try they can't get the slightest tyre squeaks out of the C-HR. The reviews mostly give an 'insufficient' score to the C-HR's performance, criticizing harshly on the fact it's slower than 55% of the competitors in the subcompact segment despite having the largest engine with the most horsepower and asking midsize prices. There was a lot of hype before launch with Toyota advertising how awesome the new Dynamic Force engine is, and people genuinely believed 168hp in a subcompact is overkill and will make a fun warm hatch. But apparently the C-HR didn't live up to it.

WTF Toyota? It takes some serious miscalibration to get this poor performance out of such a high powered engine for the class. What a waste. I hope the issue will be addressed with later updates to the transmission software.
well those numbers look a bit slower than UX and Corolla Hatch, due to testing conditions maybe? But in any case, there is no magic with CVT. Turbo engines get torque from bottom of rpm and they are much easier to drive due to that, especially when cars get heavier.

Did C-HR get hybrid in China?
 

carguy420

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That's is why I'm so concerned about the powertrains that Toyota is putting in their cars.

The current Honda City with it's 1.5L SOHC VTEC engine can do 0-100km/h in 10.8 seconds, while the VIOS with it's 2NR-FE needs a little over 12 seconds to reach 100km/h, both cars equipped with CVTs.
 

spwolf

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That's is why I'm so concerned about the powertrains that Toyota is putting in their cars.

The current Honda City with it's 1.5L SOHC VTEC engine can do 0-100km/h in 10.8 seconds, while the VIOS with it's 2NR-FE needs a little over 12 seconds to reach 100km/h, both cars equipped with CVTs.
It is only driveability that matters. M20A should be easy to drive drive it has D4S that increases torque in lower portion of rpm range.

2NR does not that tech, whatever its replacement, it will be better.
 

shizhi

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well those numbers look a bit slower than UX and Corolla Hatch, due to testing conditions maybe? But in any case, there is no magic with CVT. Turbo engines get torque from bottom of rpm and they are much easier to drive due to that, especially when cars get heavier.

Did C-HR get hybrid in China?
No. Only tnga 2.0L offered。and plan to offer BEV version in 2020.
 

ssun30

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well those numbers look a bit slower than UX and Corolla Hatch, due to testing conditions maybe? But in any case, there is no magic with CVT. Turbo engines get torque from bottom of rpm and they are much easier to drive due to that, especially when cars get heavier.
I wasn't referring to the 8NR vs 1.5 argument. I stand by my point that CVTs do not care peak torque value.

The rant was on the fact that Toyota messed up calibrations for the M20B/CVT (Chinese Domestic Market Dynamic Force engines have 'B' designation). The Honda XR-V is faster with a smaller engine and lower power-to-weight ratio while using a CVT without a launch gear.

It is only driveability that matters. M20A should be easy to drive drive it has D4S that increases torque in lower portion of rpm range.
Having an oversized and overpowered engine for a vehicle while not harnessing its capabilities is bad engineering, period. It's even more problematic when it is the most expensive one in the segment, outrun by competitors that are 30% cheaper. There's just no way to defend it. Of course acceleration figure matters when you are paying more money for that extra horsepower. If drivability is the only concern why not just buy a cheaper 1.5L?

There's definitely something wrong with that CH-R test.
The 10.8s results is the slowest out of all reviews done. But even fastest results are in the 10.5s range. Due to differences in testing methods, we usually cannot directly compare tests conducted by different organizations. But when we look at relative results conducted by the same organization, the C-HR 2.0 is slower than the XR-V 1.5L (130hp CVT) and Skoda Karoq 1.4T (140hp DSG) and only marginally faster than the Juke 1.5L (110hp CVT). All these vehicles are on average 30% cheaper. In fact at C-HR's price you can get 2.5L mid-size SUVs that are much more practical and slightly faster.
 
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ssun30

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BTW reviews on C-HR and Izoa are generally positive apart from the criticism on acceleration and price. Handling performance was considered 'unrivalled' in the class, with universal praise on its use of double wishbone rear suspension and beefy sway bars (which surprised the reviewers that it has less body roll than most hatchbacks). ACA was considered 'highly effective' at suppressing understeer and adds an extra layer of safety without triggering stability control. However the suspension was considered a bit too hard for daily driving and comfort score took a slight hit as a result.
 

carguy420

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I'm surprised that the 1.5l XR-V is just as quick as the 1.8l HR-V(XR-V's twin). The 1.8l R18 is an older engine though but it's still more powerful than the L15B1 in the XR-V, at least on paper.

Toyota has sorted out their chassis but their powertrains are not quite there yet. Seriously what the hell is going on Toyota?!
 

spwolf

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I'm surprised that the 1.5l XR-V is just as quick as the 1.8l HR-V(XR-V's twin). The 1.8l R18 is an older engine though but it's still more powerful than the L15B1 in the XR-V, at least on paper.

Toyota has sorted out their chassis but their powertrains are not quite there yet. Seriously what the hell is going on Toyota?!
maybe it depends on the market? M20A has been getting rave reviews in US, and so did new 300h powertrain in Camry and ES.
 

spwolf

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bunch of new info on upcoming Toyota's in Japan... new TJ cruiser coming next year as well as Prius v/Alpha with 150hp 1.8h hybrid powertrain as well as C-HR GR Sport edition and bunch of other updates (New Yaris coming Dec 2019 with new 1.5l Hybrid)
 

spwolf

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BTW reviews on C-HR and Izoa are generally positive apart from the criticism on acceleration and price. Handling performance was considered 'unrivalled' in the class, with universal praise on its use of double wishbone rear suspension and beefy sway bars (which surprised the reviewers that it has less body roll than most hatchbacks). ACA was considered 'highly effective' at suppressing understeer and adds an extra layer of safety without triggering stability control. However the suspension was considered a bit too hard for daily driving and comfort score took a slight hit as a result.
Our Euro suspension setup is really nice... like a luxury car over the bumps, not cheaper CUV.

It would be fun to see your impressions of C-HR and its new M20B engine... do we know what are the differences between M20A and M20B?
 

carguy420

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The CH-R sold in Malaysia also have really good suspension setup, smooth ride and very good handling. Sadly it's equipped with the 1.8l 2ZR-FBE and CVT, and it's the only powertrain option in my country.
 

spwolf

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The CH-R sold in Malaysia also have really good suspension setup, smooth ride and very good handling. Sadly it's equipped with the 1.8l 2ZR-FBE and CVT, and it's the only powertrain option in my country.
there will be likely an update during MMC, but real drivers engine will be upcoming GR Sport 200hp+ turbo version... however i would guess it will be pricey too.
 

Gecko

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I am pretty excited about TJ Cruiser... I think that name might be given to the production FT-4X.

Also hearing about other new CUVs coming to the lineup which is pretty exciting.
 

spwolf

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I am pretty excited about TJ Cruiser... I think that name might be given to the production FT-4X.

Also hearing about other new CUVs coming to the lineup which is pretty exciting.
so TJ and Prius v... what else? :)
 

Gecko

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Even if it's unibody, I'd love to see Lexus do a smaller SUV that is beefier/more upright like a baby GX or FT-4X. It would create two different personalities throughout the lineup:

Beefy/capable/BOF: Baby GX/FT-4X --> GX --> LX

More car-like and streamlined: UX --> NX --> RX --> LF-1
 

ssun30

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I'm surprised that the 1.5l XR-V is just as quick as the 1.8l HR-V(XR-V's twin). The 1.8l R18 is an older engine though but it's still more powerful than the L15B1 in the XR-V, at least on paper
And the L15B1 is only a good engine on paper. It's about 5hp down on the R18 so it's fast. But the carbon build-up is very bad even by DI standards. Servicing that engine is a nightmare. At least in China it's the first PR disaster that caused Honda sales to plunge, though quickly became overshadowed by the oil dilution issue on the L15B7. The R18 despite being an outdated engine from mid 2000s, is very reliable and cheap to maintain.

Seriously, any DI engine without complementing port injection should be a big red flag. Toyota did their experiment in the late 90s (3S-FSE/1JZ-FSE with 1st gen D-4) and it was a limited-scale disaster. 3S-FSE is very rare in the used market because they have mostly disintegrated. So they got the homework done and introduced self-cleaning D-4S. Mazda and VW also got it right.

The whole L15B series (NA and Turbocharged) is becoming a failed 'Earth Dream'. It only ruined their reputation in China for the time being, but it's a huge ticking time bomb that will detonate sooner if american auto press could stop, forgive my foul language, licking Honda's butt.
 
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CIF

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And the L15B1 is only a good engine on paper. It's about 5hp down on the R18 so it's fast. But the carbon build-up is very bad even by DI standards. Servicing that engine is a nightmare. At least in China it's the first PR disaster that caused Honda sales to plunge, though quickly became overshadowed by the oil dilution issue on the L15B7. The R18 despite being an outdated engine from mid 2000s, is very reliable and cheap to maintain.

Seriously, any DI engine without complementing port injection should be a big red flag. Toyota did their experiment in the late 90s (3S-FSE/1JZ-FSE with 1st gen D-4) and it was a limited-scale disaster. 3S-FSE is very rare in the used market because they have mostly disintegrated. So they got the homework done and introduced self-cleaning D-4S. Mazda and VW also got it right.

The whole L15B series (NA and Turbocharged) is becoming a failed 'Earth Dream'. It only ruined their reputation in China for the time being, but it's a huge ticking time bomb that will detonate sooner if american auto press could stop, forgive my foul language, licking Honda's butt.
Years ago, when Honda first debuted the Earth Dreams branding, I had casually made a joke to some friends about that. Now it's scary to think that the joke I made is almost becoming reality. The joke I made years ago at the time was that Honda should rename the Earth Dreams branding to 'Hopes and Dreams'. Sadly that almost seems to be what a lot of modern Honda engineering is based on, hopes and dreams.

Every single Earth Dreams engine with Honda's standard DI system is a ticking time bomb.
 
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