Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[spwolf]

Unfortunately under the 'Toyota first' strategy it's uncertain whether the parent company is willing to invest heavily to 'bail out' Lexus, or just let it live or die on its own.

why would Toyota need to bail out Lexus?

This time around is different, since I'm not seeing Lexus spending R&D money on older engines, here in Europe we're around 2 years away of being unable to sell older generation cars due to emissions legislation (Euro 6 Step-E), this being current CT/IS/NX which are a big part of European sales.

Even if they managed to get this older platforms to comply with them, they will be taking a big hit on average fleet emissions, so BEV/PHEV's will need to come...

Why would they spend money on old engines when all of those 3 cars will be new in 2022?
Why would they be taking a hit on average fleet emissions when they are #1 in Europe right now?

Why would there be doom and gloom in Europe for Lexus when they were never doing better here? Whole TMC is riding this huge wave of hybrid lineup in Europe, and are seeing crazy growth here even this year (except for March) with very high transactional prices.

 

[Will1991]

Why would they spend money on old engines when all of those 3 cars will be new in 2022?
Why would they be taking a hit on average fleet emissions when they are #1 in Europe right now?

Why would there be doom and gloom in Europe for Lexus when they were never doing better here? Whole TMC is riding this huge wave of hybrid lineup in Europe, and are seeing crazy growth here even this year (except for March) with very high transactional prices.

That was exactly what I wanted to say, this time around (@Gecko questioned us our opinion regarding investments at Lexus having a similar fate as it had in 2011 due to various hardships) Lexus will need to invest lots of R&D money just to keep selling them due to new regulations.
In the past, legislation wasn't as hard and was much cheaper to comply with them, this time around is different in my opinion.

 

[spwolf]

That was exactly what I wanted to say, this time around (@Gecko questioned us our opinion regarding investments at Lexus having a similar fate as it had in 2011 due to various hardships) Lexus will need to invest lots of R&D money just to keep selling them due to new regulations.
In the past, legislation wasn't as hard and was much cheaper to comply with them, this time around is different in my opinion.

well we know that all of them are being renewed before that time, but even if not, not so sure what kind of stuff would be needed for those hybrids.

Also, the way these things usually work, they will allow sales of vehicles that started sales year earlier, etc.

I think it helps with both Lexus and TMC overall having overall the best year ever in Europe. So I think they will invest even more, covid-19 excluded.

 

[Will1991]

It usually true, legislators allowing some sort of window to comply but this last one (from Euro 6 Step-C to Euro 6 Step-D) didn't allow it.

It was until a specific day and nothing more, most of the manufacturers started production months in advance of Euro 6 Step-D engines because of this. My work is directly connected to homologations of trucks and buses and this gave me some sleepless nights...

 

[Gecko]

That was exactly what I wanted to say, this time around (@Gecko questioned us our opinion regarding investments at Lexus having a similar fate as it had in 2011 due to various hardships) Lexus will need to invest lots of R&D money just to keep selling them due to new regulations.

What do you mean?

 

[Will1991]

Making old engines/platforms to comply with regulations (emissions/safety/etc...) coming up in 2/3 years would be so expensive, it should be cheaper to end current projects and get new models to the market.

To have some perspective look at Mercedes, next C-Class AMG will *is rumored to* have a 4 cylinder engine.

 

[Gecko]

Making old engines/platforms to comply with regulations (emissions/safety/etc...) coming up in 2/3 years would be so expensive, it should be cheaper to end current projects and get new models to the market.

To have some perspective look at Mercedes, next C-Class AMG will *is rumored to* have a 4 cylinder engine.

I gotcha! If anything, I think that is great because it forces Lexus' hand a bit. I also expect that the 2.5L and 2.0L hybrid engines will become their de facto powertrains for Europe and other markets, so we know what that looks like.

 

[spwolf]

I gotcha! If anything, I think that is great because it forces Lexus' hand a bit. I also expect that the 2.5L and 2.0L hybrid engines will become their de facto powertrains for Europe and other markets, so we know what that looks like.

i mean, they already are?
Sure, RX300h will get it too, which will be hugely beneficial to their sales. But do not forget we always had IS300h, GS300h, etc.

But it is not too hard for them to update their hybrids, that 2ZR-FXE has been updated many times to pass regulations.

 

[internalaudit]

Is this really possible?

Next-Gen Mazda 6 Switching to RWD Layout, Inline-Six Power

Slated to arrive in 2022, the new mid-size sedan will kick Mazda's upmarket ambitions into high gear.

www.caranddriver.com

That engine won't just be a new layout for Mazda. It will incorporate the company's Skyactiv-X sort-of-compression-ignition gasoline technology as well as a 48-volt hybrid system. We've seen numbers approaching 350 horsepower thrown around. If that sounds like an unrealistic R&D load for a company Mazda's size, well, yeah, it is. However, Mazda has lately been deepening its ties with Toyota, which may adopt the six-cylinder Skyactiv-X for the next-generation Lexus IS and RC. With Toyota's budget, Mazda engineers could probably welcome Elon Musk to Mars with a locally sourced shrimp buffet.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I don't understand what the advantage to Toyota/Lexus would be there. The only way this even approaches making sense is if the Mazda engine is an inline-6, but at some point I have to wonder why they're going to such lengths to avoid making a Dynamic Force I-6. Are they too afraid of it not living up to the 2JZ heritage?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Is this really possible?

Next-Gen Mazda 6 Switching to RWD Layout, Inline-Six Power

Slated to arrive in 2022, the new mid-size sedan will kick Mazda's upmarket ambitions into high gear.

www.caranddriver.com

That engine won't just be a new layout for Mazda. It will incorporate the company's Skyactiv-X sort-of-compression-ignition gasoline technology as well as a 48-volt hybrid system. We've seen numbers approaching 350 horsepower thrown around. If that sounds like an unrealistic R&D load for a company Mazda's size, well, yeah, it is. However, Mazda has lately been deepening its ties with Toyota, which may adopt the six-cylinder Skyactiv-X for the next-generation Lexus IS and RC. With Toyota's budget, Mazda engineers could probably welcome Elon Musk to Mars with a locally sourced shrimp buffet.

I think so. Mind you, it's just one of 3 rumored possibilities for the 4th-gen IS:

1) Proper, GA-L or TNGA-N 4IS was originally expected to enter production in July 2020 as MY 2021, then delayed for a year (2022 model year debut).

2) Current "New N" platform IS receives an extensive facelift for model year 2021 akin to the one applied to the 2013 LS. This would stretch the current IS platform until 2023 or 2024, at which point it would be replaced by either option 1 above or

3) 4IS would appear on Mazda's RWD Large Architecture and thus be a fraternal twin to the next-gen Mazda6 (itself expected for the 2022 calendar year / 2023 model year). I've also suggested that Mazda's RWD Large Architecture could be an offshoot or derivative of Toyota's TNGA-N or Lexus' GA-L.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I don't understand what the advantage to Toyota/Lexus would be there. The only way this even approaches making sense is if the Mazda engine is an inline-6, but at some point I have to wonder why they're going to such lengths to avoid making a Dynamic Force I-6. Are they too afraid of it not living up to the 2JZ heritage?

I also asked myself why Toyota didn't follow the Mazda MX-5 Miata / Fiat 124 Spider model (each with a different engine) with the Supra and derive its own inline 6 from one of its 2-liter 4s instead of just using BMW's engine. The upcoming Mazda inline 6 is basically one-and-a-half of their new Skyactiv-X 2-liter 4-cylinder engines.

 

[Gecko]

I don't understand what the advantage to Toyota/Lexus would be there. The only way this even approaches making sense is if the Mazda engine is an inline-6, but at some point I have to wonder why they're going to such lengths to avoid making a Dynamic Force I-6. Are they too afraid of it not living up to the 2JZ heritage?

Between using BMW's I6s and possibly partnering with Mazda to use theirs... I have to think a better case could be made to just make one internally. Although, maybe with development timelines of the 3.5L TT V6 and rumored upcoming turbo 4 cyl, they didn't see the feasibility of making one in house?

This feels a bit like the Supra again... (and I know this is all speculation) if we are going to have an IS or RC, and Lexus has a 3.5L TT V6, I'd really prefer a Lexus engine in my Lexus, especially when something similar exists in the parts bin. Using a Mazda I6 just because is puzzling to me, unless there are platform limitations.

But if we have a Supra, IS, RC... can't a case be made for those with GA-L and the Toyota parts bin?

 

[maiaramdan]

from what I read here
You guys still don't want to accept even with the current small share Toyota have in Mazda,
But, both of them are dealing as if it's 100%
In other words, Lexus with Mazda engine , Toyota with Subaru AWD system NOT_EQUAL Toyota with BMW, but EQUAL Lamborghini with VAG architecture

If VAG gives to Audi the R&D of chassis and to Porsche the R&D of the engine it's still the same exact corporate

 

[Will1991]

Where does a inline 6 engine fits when we already have a 3.5L TT V6?

Besides this, from what I know, current 4-cylinder SkyActive-X has a very small supercharger, providing a very small amount of boost to better managed the SPCCI thing, not being able to handle real boost to provide increased power while maintaining SPCCI stability, scaling up the 2L variant, a 3L engine would have 270hp, so less than the rumored Toyota 2.4L Turbo 4. This being said, power-wise, it makes 0 sense to Toyota to have this engine. Even at 350hp, would Toyota go back on evolution with a 48V crap system? Then what Toyota would do with our V6 TT? Scrap it?

Fuel efficiency wise also doesn’t makes any sense whatsoever, our 2.0L HSD is far superior.

Given this, in my opinion Toyota (even worse for Lexus) won’t get any Mazda engines.

Even that quote “With Toyota's budget, Mazda engineers could probably welcome Elon Musk to Mars with a locally sourced shrimp buffet.”, Toyota isn’t a charity to give Mazda money, Toyota has shareholders to keep happy. And Toyota already is building a “Mars Rover” runing on hydrogen without any Mazda engineer. Yes, they’re working closely with Subaru, but only after far deeper connections and a far bigger share amount.

Supra’s main issue is being called Supra... Really bad move IMO... Even performance wise isn’t on par with historical competition (NSX/GTR). If it was called anything new, everyone would just see an amazing sports car (see what happened with the GT86). And it’s quite a good engine, only that gearbox is dialing it down, just throw a DCT in it.

Yes, I could be wrong on all of this, it’s just my honest opinion.

 

[spwolf]

I think so. Mind you, it's just one of 3 rumored possibilities for the 4th-gen IS:

1) Proper, GA-L or TNGA-N 4IS was originally expected to enter production in July 2020 as MY 2021, then delayed for a year (2022 model year debut).

2) Current "New N" platform IS receives an extensive facelift for model year 2021 akin to the one applied to the 2013 LS. This would stretch the current IS platform until 2023 or 2024, at which point it would be replaced by either option 1 above or

3) 4IS would appear on Mazda's RWD Large Architecture and thus be a fraternal twin to the next-gen Mazda6 (itself expected for the 2022 calendar year / 2023 model year). I've also suggested that Mazda's RWD Large Architecture could be an offshoot or derivative of Toyota's TNGA-N or Lexus' GA-L.

- Mazda will produce a tiny number of RWD vehicles. It makes sense for them to use TNGA-N/GA-L. They actually delayed some models due to switch to new architecture.
- It seems like there will be a gap between 4cl 2.4t with 300hp and v6 3.5tt with 420hp in TMC lineup. Something like Skyactive-X with SCCI would be cool in Europe with good CO2/Emissions vs 2.4t that simply wouldnt even go on sale.

Mazda chief engineer at launch of some new product last year said to journalists that their new benchmark is TNGA, not BMW.

Considering deepening ties, it all makes sense.

However Mazda doing their own platform for very small amount of vehicles per year, and Lexus utilizing that for IS, instead of platform they already developed and R&D for does not make any sense.

 

[Sulu]

How about this idea?

Toyota lets Mazda use the TNGA-N/GA-L for the next Mazda6 (that will be available with an Inline-6 SkyActiv-X engine). In return (in "payment") for the use of the platform, Mazda shares the SkyActiv-X I6 with Toyota/Lexus (and perhaps Toyota helps Mazda to refine and improve the SPCCI cycle engine).

 

[ssun30]

The Skyactiv-X Inline-6 is not meant to be in the same class as the V35A. The power targets are completely different. The 350hp rumor is very new to me since Skyactiv-X has a target of 60-70 kW/L not 90. We should not expect the Skyactiv-X to come anywhere close to 416hp.

Given the cost of the Skyactiv-X system it will be a niche powertrain for eco-conscious models. But Mazda has again missed the mark here: building a cheaper tech ICE and combining it with a proper power-split hybrid system is going to be much, much more efficient than the expensive wonder engine coupled to a weak 48V mild-hybrid. Lexus would be much better off combining its 2.4T Inline-4 with the multi-stage hybrid than Inline-6 Skyactiv-X with 48V. The 2.4T will be a drop-in upgrade for the 8GR-FXS on a proven system that has been in production since 2017 while a new I6 mild-hybrid is an unprovent clean-sheet design. Lexus has nothing to gain and a lot to lose by making this switch.

The latest WLTP cycles really showed the ugly colors of the 48V mild hybrid. Instead of 15-20% claimed gains on NEDC the WLTP (also real world) economy gains is only 5-10% vs. a dumb start-stop system.

Toyota eventually in its ICE evolution roadmap wants a lean-burn HCCI engine with an electrically-driven supercharger targeting a thermal efficiency of 46%+, and Mazda basically did most of the work for it (the only missing piece now is the E-supercharger). However I don't know if they are still committed to improving ICEs. It will depend on their SSB progress in the first half of this decade.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Where does a inline 6 engine fits when we already have a 3.5L TT V6?

Besides this, from what I know, current 4-cylinder SkyActive-X has a very small supercharger, providing a very small amount of boost to better managed the SPCCI thing, not being able to handle real boost to provide increased power while maintaining SPCCI stability, scaling up the 2L variant, a 3L engine would have 270hp, so less than the rumored Toyota 2.4L Turbo 4. This being said, power-wise, it makes 0 sense to Toyota to have this engine. Even at 350hp, would Toyota go back on evolution with a 48V crap system? Then what Toyota would do with our V6 TT? Scrap it?

Fuel efficiency wise also doesn’t makes any sense whatsoever, our 2.0L HSD is far superior.

Given this, in my opinion Toyota (even worse for Lexus) won’t get any Mazda engines.

Even that quote “With Toyota's budget, Mazda engineers could probably welcome Elon Musk to Mars with a locally sourced shrimp buffet.”, Toyota isn’t a charity to give Mazda money, Toyota has shareholders to keep happy. And Toyota already is building a “Mars Rover” runing on hydrogen without any Mazda engineer. Yes, they’re working closely with Subaru, but only after far deeper connections and a far bigger share amount.

Supra’s main issue is being called Supra... Really bad move IMO... Even performance wise isn’t on par with historical competition (NSX/GTR). If it was called anything new, everyone would just see an amazing sports car (see what happened with the GT86). And it’s quite a good engine, only that gearbox is dialing it down, just throw a DCT in it.

Yes, I could be wrong on all of this, it’s just my honest opinion.

THANK YOU. You literally summed up my thoughts with everything here. The B58 is only for the Supra, which is why they partnered up with them along with doing more projects together. Toyota building their own inline-six ALONE would cost them north of 500 million or hell even a billion dollars of R&D. Toyota is slowly making the B58 into a more Toyota-designed engine like I have been saying for the last 7803772908409 quintillion years. The 2020 and 2021 model year Supras are evidence of this.

If this inline-six from Mazda was ever going to be in a Lexus then Toyota/Lexus would have NEVER built the twin-turbocharged V6 V35A-FTS in the first place. And why the hell would a LEXUS for crying out loud have a MAZDA engine? Also, Toyota/Lexus built the V35A-FTS probably because they're not building or taking an inline-six from anyone else.

These rumors just don't make any sense to me. The Mazda inline-six will only be in a Mazda IMO. To have one in a Lexus is sacrilege.

 

[Levi]

To be honest I was surprised Toyota made the V35A-FTS, when it was known V8s will be phased out, and V6s too in favour of turbocharged I4s.

With all the turbocharged 6 cylinder engines needed at TMC (BOF SUVs/UTS, RWD cars) which still are a limited market compared to I4 powered vehicles, I was certain TMC would follow the other car makers by reducing cost and increasing reliability with the use of I6 based on lengthened I4s.

BMW did it explicitly with the B38/B48/B58 (the new V8 never came and will no more come due to general V8 phaseout, N63/S63 will just get updated till the end, it is +10 years old engine, no one complain s compared to 2GR and 2UR), Mercedes went further and not only based their I6 on their I4 AMG engine that made JDM power-to-engine ratio, but even their V8 (like the 1VD base on two I4 diesels put together, like Aston Martin V12 made of two Ford Taurus I6s), JLR with its new I4 Ingenium based I6, and rumors of FCA making and I6.

Given that Toyota has I6 heritage, it is easier to digest and I6 engine as top range, that is what cars had before the 1UZ, Landcruiser, Supra... These is nothing bigger than I6(>I5>I4>I3), no I8, but there is bigger than V6(<V8<V10<V12).

I don't hate V6, I like both V6 and I6, both have their pros and cons. But Lexus does not profit from the advantages of V6 being more compact, interior room and wieght distribution is not better than a comparable BMW with I6. The Zupra should have had a low placed (dry sump?) V6 with proper mid-(front-)engine layout and transaxle, cheaper LFA with usable powerband and reasonable fuel economy.

And now, Lexus comes with turbocharged V8 at the end of the game, when they could have simply put the superchargers they already had (like JLR till now)?

Even Ferrari has no new V8 engine coming, but all improvents and their 3.8 that power Masertis too.

PS: Aston Martin confirmed no new I6, new V6 hybrid.

And that is what I think, V6 is a better combination for hybridation than I6, I6 is good as ICE only. Mid-front V6 allows to add electric motors to front wheels, whithout having and overlong hood, no need to have transfer case towards the front, ICE mechanically powers rear wheels only with electric asistance.

I bet that is exaclty the setup Ferrari's CUV will have, RWD electrically assisted transaxle, and in front electric motor(s) instead of the second gearbox the FF/GTC4 has. Of course it is a CUVs, so Landcruiser offroading/overlanding is not its purpose. But it will fulfill its AWD taks as well as any other mechanical AWD vehicle.



PS: sorry for long post