Lexus tops BMW in U.S. registrations; 2015 luxury title in dispute

IS-SV

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And on topic, it's a BMW thing. I would expect the BMW loaner fleet to be stellar. Some of our BMW owners here can comment on that maybe...
 

mmcartalk

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I have to say I am impressed that the press is really covering this. A ethical BMW win shows to the world that people consider them to have a superior product. This unethical crap means they just want the sales crown by any means and it has nothing to do with the vehicle.

IMO, sales-crowns mean little or nothing. I certainly don't buy a car simply based on what the Jones' down the street are doing.....or because the auto press may be pushing it. Indeed, in my younger years, back in the 70s and 80s, I bought some extremely popular cars that ended up so poorly-made (Horizon, Citation, K-car, etc...) that it would make your head spin today. (the Citation, for example, though truly a brilliant concept at the time, sold over 900,000 copies in its first year of production, and the atrocious quality control reflected it).

Fast-forward to today: I believe that BMW is selling mainly on its past....all those years and decades of C&D, R&T, and other enthusiast publications pushing the brand and giving them the comparison-wins. Not that some of those wins weren't deserved.......BMW's, in the past, did have superb driving characteristics from what I considered some of the best steering/suspension/chassis engineers in the world. (strangely enough, though, I never owned a BMW, for several other reasons). But much of that went down the tubes the last few years as the company traded Ultimate-Driving characteristics for mainstream appeal. Today, BMW is selling mainstream vehicles to people who (especially without a test-drive) may think they are getting the fine tactile BMW-feel of the past when they really aren't.
 

mikeavelli

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IMO, sales-crowns mean little or nothing. I certainly don't buy a car simply based on what the Jones' down the street are doing.....or because the auto press may be pushing it. Indeed, in my younger years, back in the 70s and 80s, I bought some extremely popular cars that ended up so poorly-made (Horizon, Citation, K-car, etc...) that it would make your head spin today. (the Citation, for example, though truly a brilliant concept at the time, sold over 900,000 copies in its first year of production, and the atrocious quality control reflected it).

Fast-forward to today: I believe that BMW is selling mainly on its past....all those years and decades of C&D, R&T, and other enthusiast publications pushing the brand and giving them the comparison-wins. Not that some of those wins weren't deserved.......BMW's, in the past, did have superb driving characteristics from what I considered some of the best steering/suspension/chassis engineers in the world. (strangely enough, though, I never owned a BMW, for several other reasons). But much of that went down the tubes the last few years as the company traded Ultimate-Driving characteristics for mainstream appeal. Today, BMW is selling mainstream vehicles to people who (especially without a test-drive) may think they are getting the fine tactile BMW-feel of the past when they really aren't.

While I agree on paper is doesn't mean much these brands definitely use it for marketing and branding to try to sway future customers their brand is the best seller thus superior. It also does create positive energy in a company to be #1 in their field.

I think BMW figured out their past while amazing and great that most people don't care. What they do like is the BMW badge, the "image" of being sporty and that was that. So BMW pumps out softer, less involving cars and SUVs with tons of power with lease deals galore with free maintenance and most don't care. Cause lets be honest for all the bitching purists and enthusiasts do, sales continue to climb. BMW is in the business to sell cars and make money, not make some people on the internet happy :D.

Average Consumer wins another over > Car Enthusiast

And BMW themselves stated their SUV sales will continue to climb up and up at the expense of cars.
 

mmcartalk

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While I agree on paper is doesn't mean much these brands definitely use it for marketing and branding to try to sway future customers their brand is the best seller thus superior. It also does create positive energy in a company to be #1 in their field.

I think BMW figured out their past while amazing and great that most people don't care. What they do like is the BMW badge, the "image" of being sporty and that was that. So BMW pumps out softer, less involving cars and SUVs with tons of power with lease deals galore with free maintenance and most don't care.

Even with past BMW's though, it was more than just simple "sport". One could go out and buy a Dodge Viper and get plenty of "sport" (and stump-pulling torque, of course). But non-M BMW models excelled in a combination/balance of both sport AND comfort (even with the Sport Package 335 with 35-series tires) that was simply hard to beat. The M3's suspension, off course, was much stiffer...it was obviously designed for a track, not rough roads.


Cause lets be honest for all the bitching purists and enthusiasts do, sales continue to climb. BMW is in the business to sell cars and make money, not make some people on the internet happy :D.

The Internet, of course includes everyone today, not just car enthusiasts. But your point is taken.....people like us. ;)



And BMW themselves stated their SUV sales will continue to climb up and up at the expense of cars.

That's true of probably most automakers today. When you've got Bentley selling an SUV (and even Rolls considering one)....that tells you something.
 

IS-SV

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Agreed, BMW is in the automotive business, for profit. And they are doing quite well too, especially as they expand on SUV sales. And the last thing they want to do is focus on making people on the internet happy that don't even buy their products or their closest competitors products (Mercedes, Lexus, Audi).
 

Bulldog 1

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There are respected members of this site who are German. I have many friends, not to mention family who are German and of the highest repute ... I would not say "it is a German thing"

I would think users of this sight would rise above PC. The intent is from an automotive context, which to me would be obvious.
German company Volkswagen ruined themselves chasing world domination.
German company BMW is the topic of this thread.
Don't really see any other way to put it.
 
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IS-SV

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Even with PC aside, I don't view BMW's questionable/unethical actions to win sales race as the same as VW's actions which are of a criminal nature. And in an automotive context I don't lump the entire German auto industry in with VW. But yes VW obviously took it's form of cheating to another (illegal) level, their claim to fame is now the biggest fraud in automotive history.
 

Bulldog 1

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I swear I saw another company on trouble on this site... ?
Suit Filed Against Mercedes-Benz for BlueTec Diesel Engines
 

RAL

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I would think users of this sight would rise above PC. The intent is from an automotive context, which to me would be obvious.
German company Volkswagen ruined themselves chasing world domination.
German company BMW is the topic of this thread.
Don't really see any other way to put it.

Thank you for your clarification.
 

yiantony

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Most of the unregistered BMW cars would be exported to China. Unlike Lexus, BMW doesn't have too many real buyers. Their cars are mostly leased and a big chunk of them are sold because of the reason above.
 

Ian Schmidt

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Interesting about the loaners. I've actually seen one Lexus dealer run out due to heavy service volume and have to put customers in rental Camrys (paid for 100% by the dealer, of course). I guess BMW would never have that problem.
 

mmcartalk

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Interesting about the loaners. I've actually seen one Lexus dealer run out due to heavy service volume and have to put customers in rental Camrys (paid for 100% by the dealer, of course). I guess BMW would never have that problem.

Sure, it's nice to have an equivalent Lexus for a loaner, but I can think of lots worse substitutes than Camrys. Besides, in most cases, it's only for a couple of days at most. Heck, even Jeremy Clarkson should be able to live with a Camry for a few days LOL.
 

James

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Sure, it's nice to have an equivalent Lexus for a loaner, but I can think of lots worse substitutes than Camrys. Besides, in most cases, it's only for a couple of days at most. Heck, even Jeremy Clarkson should be able to live with a Camry for a few days LOL.
I highly doubt Mr. Clarkson could live in any Lexus or Toyota besides of course the LFA :)
 

mmcartalk

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I highly doubt Mr. Clarkson could live in any Lexus or Toyota besides of course the LFA :)


Yes, I was being facetious...I know he has never liked the Camry. ;) My point was, though, that it's a nice if somewhat bland car, and that virtually anyone should be able to temporarily live with one for just a day or two.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Automotive News has just posted a long, informative and eye-opening article on the ins and outs of new car sales and registration manipulation. The story's title says it all: When is a sale not really a sale? Here's the link:
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...kingNews+(Automotive+News+Breaking+News+Feed)

As I said, it's quite long, but here are the most relevant passages regarding BMW's narrow 2015 sales lead and absurd shortfall in corresponding registrations:

As the U.S. auto industry roared toward a record-breaking finish in 2015, BMW, the top-selling luxury brand for three of the four previous years, was clinging to a 553-vehicle lead over Mercedes-Benz. Surging Lexus was threatening to leapfrog both.

But BMW wouldn't leave this race to chance. A Nov. 30 memo dangled $1,000 bonuses for each 2015 3-series vehicle dealerships sold to themselves as a "specialty demo" -- but the offer was valid that day only. The next round of industry sales reports, released the following afternoon, showed BMW's edge over Mercedes had quadrupled.

A month later, on the day automakers closed their books on the year, BMW made a stronger plea. It tripled the demo-vehicle offer to $3,000 on some models, including 2016s. "TODAY is the LAST OPPORTUNITY," it urged dealers in a memo obtained by Automotive News.

BMW ended 2015 in first place by 1,422 vehicles, the slimmest margin of victory since 2000. But when IHS Automotive collected registration data from each state, BMW's win appeared hollow. About 5,000 more new Lexuses had been registered last year than BMWs. On that basis, BMW had fallen to third...

Last year, BMW settled a suit alleging that dealerships sold 104,000 vehicles as new from 2006 through 2014, even though the dealerships previously had declared them as sold, starting the warranty clock before a consumer took possession. BMW did not admit wrongdoing but agreed to extend warranties and reimburse customers for some repairs...

While registrations tend to lag sales -- and the registration data exclude some heavy-duty pickups that the Detroit automakers report in their sales -- the gap of 286,832 vehicles in 2015 is the largest of any year in at least the past decade...

BMW's sales in 2015 exceeded registrations by 3.2 percent, compared to a 1.7 percent gap for the industry overall.

But BMW noted that its January registrations outpaced its sales by more than 7,000 vehicles, making up for much of the disparity from 2015.

The numbers support BMW's assertion that registrations can sometimes be slow, though it's also evidence of a last-minute sales frenzy as 2015 came to a close.

A former BMW employee said the company's sales reports can include thousands of punched cars to boost results in slow months. Many are classified internally as "Specialty 8" and might not be driven at all before being relisted as used.

Dealers who don't chase the "Specialty 8" bonuses are "uncompetitive," said the former employee, who requested anonymity while discussing internal company business.

On Jan. 4, the last day automakers could count sales toward 2015, BMW followed a morning bonus memo with an update later in the day saying dealers could collect more "Spec 8" incentives. The memos offered $3,000 on all 6-series cars and 2015 i8s.

The next day, BMW said 6-series sales soared 64 percent in December, while i8 sales more than quadrupled. The rest of the brand fell 20 percent. It was enough -- barely -- to claim the luxury crown for another year, even if some of the cars that helped secure the all-important victory still were waiting on a dealership lot for someone to actually buy them.
 

mikeavelli

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Automotive News has just posted a long, informative and eye-opening article on the ins and outs of new car sales and registration manipulation. The story's title says it all: When is a sale not really a sale? Here's the link:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160314/RETAIL01/303149946/when-is-a-sale-not-really-a-sale?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+autonews/BreakingNews+(Automotive+News+Breaking+News+Feed)

As I said, it's quite long, but here are the most relevant passages regarding BMW's narrow 2015 sales lead and absurd shortfall in corresponding registrations:

Well that explains the 6 series sales the last couple of months then...I was wondering what the hell.....

Funny to state publicly the sales crown isn't important but clearly it is.
 
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IS-SV

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Sales crowns are just a trophy with self- coronation, not subject to the same scrutiny as published financial results/metrics including revenue and profit amounts. So it's no surprise that abuses occur with this kind of information.
 

CIF

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Automotive News has just posted a long, informative and eye-opening article on the ins and outs of new car sales and registration manipulation. The story's title says it all: When is a sale not really a sale? Here's the link:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160314/RETAIL01/303149946/when-is-a-sale-not-really-a-sale?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+autonews/BreakingNews+(Automotive+News+Breaking+News+Feed)

As I said, it's quite long, but here are the most relevant passages regarding BMW's narrow 2015 sales lead and absurd shortfall in corresponding registrations:

Thank you for posting that. The details of this corporately-sanctioned program were disgusting to read IMHO.

This perfectly explains the occasional wild month-to-month sales swings of individual BMW models that seemed to be happening for no reason. Now we have a reason.
 

mmcartalk

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I don't know if you guys will agree with me, but here is a quote from that article. IMO, ethically, this is basically no different from what VW did, though it involves sales-numbers rather than diesel-emissions. But, because sales are not something that is formally regulated by the EPA or DOT, and the fact that false sales numbers don't harm people's health, not much can actually be done except to report it.....you can't fine for something like that unless it violates the code of buisness-ethics in some states.

A lawsuit filed in January by a suburban Chicago dealership group accuses Fiat Chrysler Automobiles of stepping over the line to outright fraud. The suit says FCA bribed dealers to report false sales on the last day of a month, then reverse them after the company published its numbers. FCA, which has reported year-over-year sales increases for an industry-leading 71 consecutive months, has denied the allegations.