Lexus Shakes Up F SPORT Brand

[mikeavelli]

unfortunately we are just not going to get German performance or innovation from Lexus. You will get a very high quality and reliable rebadged Toyota that looks pretty. Maybe they will have something big for us when they roll out EV’s but I wouldn’t hold your breath. We can ask for better styled and designed interiors bc they have been pretty sucky as of late.

There haven’t been rebadges in ages.

 

[Smychavo]

There haven’t been rebadges in ages.

I'll say rebadging is quite the exaggeration. Built on the same basic platform? Yes, but same is the situation with every other vehicle from every automaker from the top down. On a different note, I'm fine with this F-Sport changes, this is no different to other automakers with how they're handling trim levels, with the closest analogue being BMW (Core models, M-Sport/Shadowline, M-Performance, M). Suppose this is their way of playing catch-up, but with their supposed introduction of new models in the coming years, I think we're genuinely in for something interesting.

 

[Sulu]

unfortunately we are just not going to get German performance or innovation from Lexus. You will get a very high quality and reliable rebadged Toyota that looks pretty. Maybe they will have something big for us when they roll out EV’s but I wouldn’t hold your breath. We can ask for better styled and designed interiors bc they have been pretty sucky as of late.

If you want German performance and German innovation, why buy Japanese? That would be buying a copy of the original.

Lexus may have done that 30 years ago as it was trying to establish itself as a luxury automotive brand but now that it is an established brand, it is only right that it highlight its roots, which are Japanese, not European and not German. If you want German, buy German. If you buy Lexus, you should accept that it is Japanese.

 

[Smychavo]

If you want German performance and German innovation, why buy Japanese? That would be buying a copy of the original.

Lexus may have done that 30 years ago as it was trying to establish itself as a luxury automotive brand but now that it is an established brand, it is only right that it highlight its roots, which are Japanese, not European and not German. If you want German, buy German. If you buy Lexus, you should accept that it is Japanese.

I can jive with that, I want them to stand out from the competition. Though engineering wise, I feel as if this constant pushing for performance metrics will continue to be a sticking point regardless of what Lexus does. It's clear from their performance cars that they're not always chasing lap times, or performance metrics either. They want to blend that enjoyment of driving, the connection to the machine, be it acoustically, or chassis dynamics while wrapping the driver in a stylish, and luxurious interior and a sleek, and unique exterior.

On a similar note (though somewhat unrelated from the topic at hand), even their usual luxury car assortment is pretty competent, they succeed at being just that, luxury cars, despite their architecture not featuring the aforementioned innovation of the German cars. I honestly can't imagine those who have an IS are having any less fun than those who own 330i's, C-Classes or A4s driving on a backroad, or hell, even on a autocross.

 

[thtupid]

This is cool and all but I just hope this doesnt mean price hikes for what use to be F-sport grades (ie the new "handling" grade).

 

[ssun30]

The Germans and even Cadillac got it figured out. I mean when you are at 500-700hp there’s just tons of power everywhere.

Yes, what they have is displacement. A 4.0L V8 turbo will drive like a 4.0 V8 even without any boost.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

The LS bowed out of that equation since 2009 in the US, so one cant put all the blame on the 5th gen. It is interesting to hear reports of what the 5LS could have been but thats for a different thread.

I was gonna say, I've heard about traditional LS buyers going M-B in mass quantities since the LS460 came out. It's not the V8, the Boomer buyers just don't want anything remotely sporty. Same reason the 7 Series was never a serious competitor.

 

[NXracer]

This is cool and all but I just hope this doesnt mean price hikes for what use to be F-sport grades (ie the new "handling" grade).

If the whole point is to make more money....you can bet they'll be price hikes.

 

[NXracer]

I can jive with that, I want them to stand out from the competition. Though engineering wise, I feel as if this constant pushing for performance metrics will continue to be a sticking point regardless of what Lexus does. It's clear from their performance cars that they're not always chasing lap times, or performance metrics either. They want to blend that enjoyment of driving, the connection to the machine, be it acoustically, or chassis dynamics while wrapping the driver in a stylish, and luxurious interior and a sleek, and unique exterior.

On a similar note (though somewhat unrelated from the topic at hand), even their usual luxury car assortment is pretty competent, they succeed at being just that, luxury cars, despite their architecture not featuring the aforementioned innovation of the German cars. I honestly can't imagine those who have an IS are having any less fun than those who own 330i's, C-Classes or A4s driving on a backroad, or hell, even on a autocross.

This is not directed to you personally, but sticking point to who exactly? I think being on a internet platform, alot of what we discuss sometimes becomes an echo chamber from a small but vocal minority but does not reflect the reality of the customer base.

I simply don't think Lexus's core paying demographic wants what you are indicating. I don't mean to dig at the RC-F crowd, but since its introduction the product owners never really cared about the loud media opinion that the chassis was heavy, or it shifted slower then a comparable M/AMG product, the fact they never had to see a service bay and it was easier to "live with" was more then enough. I think this is the Vmax at which we will see most of their F/F sport level products. Everything below that will be lifestyle products; why pay some random seller online for addons when the factory is doing them.

 

[bananaslug]

There haven’t been rebadges in ages.

Not to sound rude but you come across biased and I get it because you work for Lexus so your lively hood depends on them having competitive products. Perhaps we have different definitions of rebadged. Clearly the Lexus has a better interior in terms of quality, increased levels of noise dampening. However they ride on the same platform, there is no significant change in suspense geometry or materials, upgrade brakes and they have carry over power trains from their Toyota counterparts.

 

[Smychavo]

This is not directed to you personally, but sticking point to who exactly? I think being on a internet platform, alot of what we discuss sometimes becomes an echo chamber from a small but vocal minority but does not reflect the reality of the customer base.

I simply don't think Lexus core paying demographic wants what your indicating. I don't mean to dig at the RC-F crowd, but since its introduction the product owners never really cared about the loud media opinion that the chassis was heavy, or it shifted slower then a comparable M/AMG product, the fact they it never had to see a service bay and easier to liver with was more then enough. I think this is the Vmax at which we will see most of their F/F sport level products. Everything below that will be lifestyle products; why pay some random seller online for addons when the factory is doing them.

I'm generally referring to the online presence of automotive enthusiasts. Other forums, comments under videos, and by extension, media outlets and even their own respective comment sections. It's not a true census of satisfaction among buyers, let alone, public interest, but it remains a unique viewpoint into a niche community. These musings are my attempts to rationalize my own liking of the brand, and understand why others feel the way they do about Lexus, and why they'd choose them over the other luxury car competitors outside of the general statement of reliability that its parent company prides itself on.
Suppose I'm being pretentious, but I genuinely want to understand. Maybe it really isn't that deep, but with such conflicting opinions online, I can't help but wonder.

 

[Sulu]

Not to sound rude but you come across biased and I get it because you work for Lexus so your lively hood depends on them having competitive products. Perhaps we have different definitions of rebadged. Clearly the Lexus has a better interior in terms of quality, increased levels of noise dampening. However they ride on the same platform, there is no significant change in suspense geometry or materials, upgrade brakes and they have carry over power trains from their Toyota counterparts.

Platform-sharing is a fact of automotive life now; all automakers do it. Volkswagen, with its multitude of brands from the low end to the high end, shares platforms and engines, all because of the high cost of developing new platforms and engines. Automakers are consolidating -- Stellantis is the most obvious example -- in order to be able to share more engines and platforms.

Your argument has no justification.

 

[Will1991]

Not to sound rude but you come across biased and I get it because you work for Lexus so your lively hood depends on them having competitive products. Perhaps we have different definitions of rebadged. Clearly the Lexus has a better interior in terms of quality, increased levels of noise dampening. However they ride on the same platform, there is no significant change in suspense geometry or materials, upgrade brakes and they have carry over power trains from their Toyota counterparts.

Being professional like Mike also means being able to be objective and fair while pointing out both strengths and weaknesses.

This being said, TMC does share platforms, but they’re night and day.

Even in the entry level UX, a very far from perfect car with some issues IMO, you can’t say it’s remotely similar to the CHR, it’s night and day difference.
This difference grows even bigger with the others models (ES/Camry for example).

There’s only one definition to rebadge, and it’s not platform sharing…

 

[LarryT]

Perhaps we have different definitions of rebadged. Clearly the Lexus has a better interior in terms of quality, increased levels of noise dampening. However they ride on the same platform, there is no significant change in suspense geometry or materials, upgrade brakes and they have carry over power trains from their Toyota counterparts.

Exactly. It goes beyond just the platforms as Toyota engines are also shared with many Lexus models, with no additional increase in HP or Torque to set them apart from their Toyota counterparts.

 

[Smychavo]

Exactly. It goes beyond just the platforms as Toyota engines are also shared with many Lexus models, with no additional increase in HP or Torque to set them apart from their Toyota counterparts.

I get what you mean, but even then, there are plenty of instances where the chassis matters much more than power metrics. The B58 for instance, great engine, used in practically every vehicle in BMW's lineup from the 2, to the 8 series. Different outputs, sure, but it maintains its consistent, and smooth power delivery across all its iterations. The only difference is that its extra power is meant to compensate for exceedingly heavier vehicles than something such as an M240i.

 

[NXracer]

I'm generally referring to the online presence of automotive enthusiasts. Other forums, comments under videos, and by extension, media outlets and even their own respective comment sections. It's not a true census of satisfaction among buyers, let alone, public interest, but it remains a unique viewpoint into a niche community. These musings are my attempts to rationalize my own liking of the brand, and understand why others feel the way they do about Lexus, and why they'd choose them over the other luxury car competitors outside of the general statement of reliability that its parent company prides itself on.
Suppose I'm being pretentious, but I genuinely want to understand. Maybe it really isn't that deep, but with such conflicting opinions online, I can't help but wonder.

I'm unsure of what you are getting at, but my 2cts, why reinvent the wheel? If BMW makes the greatest performance cars, why spend a huge fortune on RD to cater to the extra 1k conquest buyers who switch from BMW to Lexus F model?

 

[Smychavo]

I'm unsure of what you are getting at, but my 2cts, why reinvent the wheel? If BMW makes the greatest performance cars, why spend a huge fortune on RD to cater to the extra 1k conquest buyers who switch from BMW to Lexus F model?

I'm overcomplicating things, my apologies. All I mean to say is that I don't understand the one-upmanship discourse when it comes to performance cars, and the inevitable comparisons to find 'what is the best' that permeates online.

 

[mikeavelli]

Not to sound rude but you come across biased and I get it because you work for Lexus so your lively hood depends on them having competitive products. Perhaps we have different definitions of rebadged. Clearly the Lexus has a better interior in terms of quality, increased levels of noise dampening. However they ride on the same platform, there is no significant change in suspense geometry or materials, upgrade brakes and they have carry over power trains from their Toyota counterparts.

It was rude but I don’t take it personal. I don’t work for Lexus, I work with Lexus in multiple capacities and they respect my opinion. I provide them with positive and negative feedback. Just as I’ve said here in public I’ve told them I want to see a V-8 option and I would like to see carbon fiber as an interior option. I also have told them I would like to see the luxury package offered on the F-Sport. There are no rose colored glasses. That doesn’t mean I still won’t support the product.

Now here is an education. The first generation LX 450 was a rebadge. It is nearly identical to the Land cruiser outside grill change and badges. The 2022 LX is not a rebadge. The interiors and exteriors are completely different and even some of the suspension, The last generation also was not a rebadge.

Please know the difference between a rebadge and platform sharing. Thank you.

 

[mikeavelli]

I had my hands on the LX in daylight. Video coming

 

[Smychavo]

Looks great. On a different note, this is more speculation than anything, but I see F progressing in either of two directions. One, it's more integrated into these future models, so we could see more F products across their portfolio. Or, F will continue to be more of a skunkworks project than anything. In that situation we're not going to see that many more F products than what we've already been seeing for the last decade or so. Least, that's my generally uneducated guess.