Lexus Remains Lukewarm on Diesel

[IS-SV]

No problem, Mike.
^
Steve

Now I can see, though, why some people have problems with the Lincoln/Cadillac/Acura alphabet soups.

MSN, CNN, PBS, ET, ESPN, MTV, CN, FX, TC, yep I got more than I can keep track of on cable....

 

[mmcartalk]

OK fine, thanks, but that's not my prediction. (Did you think I dreamt up the criminal charges prediction in my spare time as fiction author?, jk)

Depending on the specific legal statutes involved, and how the U.S. Attorneys want to handle it, it could be civil, criminal, or a mixture of both. Usually, though, unless deliberate fraud can be proved, or people were hurt/killed as a result (a.k.a. Pinto), violation of Federal Motor Vehicle Standards is generally handled as a civil offense.

 

[IS-SV]

Depending on the specific legal statutes involved, and how the U.S. Attorneys want to handle it, it could be civil, criminal, or a mixture of both. Usually, though, unless deliberate fraud can be proved, or people were hurt/killed as a result (a.k.a. Pinto), violation of Federal Motor Vehicle Standards is generally handled as a civil offense.

Exactly the point, it's already proven that nitrous oxide emissions do hurt/kill people, so that's a given especially knowing how badly they exceeded US standards. Agreed it still remains to be proven if deliberate fraud was involved. US (and German) are still investigating of course, we will see how good they were at covering their tracks at VW.

 

[Och]

Toyota, justified or not, had enough problems of their own here a few years ago (even requiring Congressional hearings)....and got through it. So (likely) will VW, though I'm not going to make any absolute predictions.

Don't even compare. There was nothing wrong with Toyota besides a few scumbag lawyers trying to pull a fast one and fabricating nonsense.

 

[mmcartalk]

Don't even compare. There was nothing wrong with Toyota besides a few scumbag lawyers trying to pull a fast one and fabricating nonsense.

I tend to agree it was questionable, but, like it or not, because a state trooper and his family were killed in a so-called "runaway" ES350, it still got blown up into a huge media event....with Congressional hearings. Even if the electronic throttle DID malfunction, one of the points I made at the time was that State Troopers, as part of their training and certification, are taught to handle driving emergencies at high speed....after all, they sometimes have to do high-speed pursuits. And, if nothing else works, a shift into neutral or shutting off the engine ignition should do it.

Whether it gets to that point with VW, like I was discussing with Steve, remains to be seen. It's already a major news story.

 

[IS-SV]

In short, no comparison, NA. Very different. Nobody said VW can't survive this crisis that's already expanded beyond US and state of CA to Germany, even if total costs are tens of billions.

Btw -I'm still waiting for VW whistleblowers to surface.

 

[mikeavelli]

I tend to agree it was questionable, but, like it or not, because a state trooper and his family were killed in a so-called "runaway" ES350, it still got blown up into a huge media event....with Congressional hearings. Even if the electronic throttle DID malfunction, one of the points I made at the time was that State Troopers, as part of their training and certification, are taught to handle driving emergencies at high speed....after all, they sometimes have to do high-speed pursuits. And, if nothing else works, a shift into neutral or shutting off the engine ignition should do it.

Whether it gets to that point with VW, like I was discussing with Steve, remains to be seen. It's already a major news story.

FYI, Toyota was found not guilty of no wrong doing and still ended up paying I think a billion or so. I never cashed my check, it wasn't deserved. Toyota also didn't PURPOSELY do anything to cheat or break the law.

Already in this case, VW has admitted guilt.

 

[Och]

I tend to agree it was questionable, but, like it or not, because a state trooper and his family were killed in a so-called "runaway" ES350, it still got blown up into a huge media event....with Congressional hearings. Even if the electronic throttle DID malfunction, one of the points I made at the time was that State Troopers, as part of their training and certification, are taught to handle driving emergencies at high speed....after all, they sometimes have to do high-speed pursuits. And, if nothing else works, a shift into neutral or shutting off the engine ignition should do it.

Whether it gets to that point with VW, like I was discussing with Steve, remains to be seen. It's already a major news story.

It was blown up into a huge media nonsense event, and as a result Toyota were extorted to pay a fine and perform a meaningless recall. But I doubt that their sales were impacted negatively as a result of this, as most people saw the whole thing for bs that it was. It still gets me mad just thinking of all the filth Toyota had to deal with. There was one particular lawyer that seriously claimed in court that cosmic rays could alter software within Toyota's ECU and cause intended acceleration. I was disappointed that Toyota didn't take a much more aggressive stance on this, and didn't fight those allegations.

If anything, it served a wake-up call to Toyota as their general build quality around that time was not up to their own standards.

 

[mmcartalk]

FYI, Toyota was found not guilty of no wrong doing and still ended up paying I think a billion or so. I never cashed my check, it wasn't deserved.

Yes, I've been in that position, too, of not cashing checks I didn't think were deserved (like when I got paid twice for jury-duty). The billion-dollar settlement at Toyota was of a class-action civil nature, not a criminal fine or wrongdoing.

(also, your call, of course, but if the check is still valid and not expired, you could do something like cash it and give the money to your favorite charity....or use it to help run the forum here, as it is primarily a Lexus forum).

Already in this case, VW has admitted guilt.

Yep...and I think that is going to make it cheaper and easier for both sides, as it may avoid a long expensive prosecution by the government (if applicable), and may also save VW a lot of legal costs in court....though Steve is correct that there will probably be costly fines. Neither Government lawyers nor corporate lawyers, of course, work for free........you already know that, of course, but I think it is an important point worth mentioning, as court cases themselves, even before a settlement, can cost a bit.

 

[mmcartalk]

If anything, it served a wake-up call to Toyota as their general build quality around that time was not up to their own standards.

Yes, a good point. We're already seeing a major improvement in fit/finish on several new Toyota models that were developed since then. I felt the best examples were the new Corolla and RAV-4.

 

[IS-SV]

The billion-dollar settlement at Toyota was of a class-action civil nature, not a criminal fine or wrongdoing.

.

Toyota did pay $1.28 billion (it was not of a class action civil nature) for deferred prosecution agreement to avoid prosecution. Justice dept and FBI was involved btw.

DOT later issued final conclusion. Other than sloppy use of double mats, driver error caused problems, not Toyota.

Way different than VW situation.

 

[mmcartalk]

Mods: Can I respectfully make a suggestion here?

While a lot of good and valid points are being made here by everyone (as usual, this is an excellent forum), this thread seems to be getting so far into VW/Toyota with their problems that we're losing track of the initial question...Lexus commitment (or non-commitment) to diesels. I'd suggest (myself included) that we save any more VW-scandal comments for the active thread we already have going on it:

https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/...es-as-emissions-rigging-scandal-deepens.1023/

 

[IS-SV]

^. Certainly to be considered, but the VW TDI fiasco will likely impact entire passenger car diesel US market (including attitude at Lexus towards this engine technology, topic here) for years.

Note: thread referenced is about VW Canada actions.

 

[CIF]

Mods: Can I respectfully make a suggestion here?

While a lot of good and valid points are being made here by everyone (as usual, this is an excellent forum), this thread seems to be getting so far into VW/Toyota with their problems that we're losing track of the initial question...Lexus commitment (or non-commitment) to diesels. I'd suggest (myself included) that we save any more VW-scandal comments for the active thread we already have going on it:

https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/...es-as-emissions-rigging-scandal-deepens.1023/

Your point is noted, but for now I think this thread is okay, because this VW disaster affects the entire diesel market, and as such, technically is on topic with regards to Lexus and diesels. It's very timely and still on point, discussing this VW issue, coming so recently after this Lexus news. As long as the discussion remains relevant to the diesel market and Lexus .

Otherwise, I will make the other thread the "main" VW emissions discussion thread.

 

[mmcartalk]

^. Certainly to be considered, but the VW TDI fiasco will likely impact entire passenger car diesel US market (including attitude at Lexus towards this engine technology, topic here) for years.

Note: thread referenced is about VW Canada actions.

Yes, I noticed that, but it seemed like a better place for the scandal comments as a whole.

How this scandal affects the larger BMW and Mercedes Bluetec diesels in the U.S. probably remains to be seen, as those larger diesels are in a different class, and generally require more maintenance than the small VW TDIs (I don't think TDIs even needed the urea-solutions because of their small size, though that may be the case now on the newest ones). There's no evidence, either (yet) that BMW and Mercedes did any cheating.

(those big Bluetec diesels, BTW, are gems...I really enjoyed the test-drives I've done on them)

 

[IS-SV]

How this scandal affects the larger BMW and Mercedes Bluetec diesels in the U.S. probably remains to be seen, as those larger diesels are in a different class, and generally require more maintenance than the small VW TDIs (I don't think TDIs even needed the urea-solutions because of their small size, though that may be the case now on the newest ones).

()

. Certainly an interesting question that Lexus will watch carefully (impact on leading premium automakers Mercedes and BMW diesel sales, or ripple effect) and related to topic here.

. The most likely answer as to "why TDI didn't need urea treatment" has nothing to do with small size. Most likely actually they did need urea treatment to avhieve clean/low nox emissions with good power and economy. So without exhaust treatment they decided to CHEAT instead and sell gross polluters that did deliver good power and fuel economy.

Otherwise running legal and clean the non urea TDI likely produces much less power with fuel economy not much better than similar sized clean DI gas engine. The recall/fix is likely to exhibit what I just said.

 

[Och]

. The most likely answer as to "why TDI didn't need urea treatment" has nothing to do with small size. Most likely actually they did need urea treatment to avhieve clean/low nox emissions with good power and economy. So without exhaust treatment they decided to CHEAT instead and sell gross polluters that did deliver good power and fuel economy.

Like I posted earlier, adding urea treatment to inexpensive TDI models would probably increase their price to the point where they stop being competitive. Diesel option already comes with a price premium, and increasing it further just wouldn't be feasible. Not saying of course it was ok for them to just cheat.

 

[IS-SV]

Like I posted earlier, adding urea treatment to inexpensive TDI models would probably increase their price to the point where they stop being competitive. Diesel option already comes with a price premium, and increasing it further just wouldn't be feasible. Not saying of course it was ok for them to just cheat.

I agree (as well adding more expensive maintenance), by cheating it gave them a unfair advantage in marketplace. They were good at advertising these "clean" advantages, fraudulently.

 

[mmcartalk]

. Certainly an interesting question that Lexus will watch carefully (impact on leading premium automakers Mercedes and BMW diesel sales, or ripple effect) and related to topic here.

. The most likely answer as to "why TDI didn't need urea treatment" has nothing to do with small size. Most likely actually they did need urea treatment to avhieve clean/low nox emissions with good power and economy. So without exhaust treatment they decided to CHEAT instead and sell gross polluters that did deliver good power and fuel economy.

Otherwise running legal and clean the non urea TDI likely produces much less power with fuel economy not much better than similar sized clean DI gas engine. The recall/fix is likely to exhibit what I just said.

This article, of course, was admittedly written before the scandal broke and what we know now, but, nevertheless, it explains the emissions-difference between the TDI and the larger Mercedes Bluetecs.


http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/volkswagen-jetta-tdi.html

Unlike the Mercedes Bluetec system, which injects urea into the exhaust system to convert NOx to nitrogen and water, the Jetta uses a NOx storage catalyst, which holds the emissions in a reservoir until they can be burned off by the engine.

 

[IS-SV]

This article, of course, was admittedly written before the scandal broke and what we know now, but, nevertheless, it explains the emissions-difference between the TDI and the larger Mercedes Bluetecs.


http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/volkswagen-jetta-tdi.html

Yep just like I said (and Och said) no (effective and expensive) urea exhaust treatment on TDI.

So they improvised by using less effective cheaper technique and cheated to fake getting clean emissions.