Lexus Remains Lukewarm on Diesel

[mmcartalk]

Yes, the saying "ignorance is bliss" may or may not apply.

Ignorant he was not. I haven't seen him for a few years, but we used to spend time, on our lunch breaks or other free time, taking about (what else?)...cars. In that regard, he could easily keep up with you, me, and most of the other people on this forum.

Only he can answer that today (knowing about this fiasco now), notable if he is business savvy or environmentally conscience and expected a clean powertrain.

His two Jetta TDIs were built long before any of this software-evasion business surfaced. VW has sold those TDI's here for quite some time.

I'm curious how those in Toyota/Lexus (hybrid) sales will deal with this in discussions with customers...

Probably not much different from the way any other automaker sells hybrids would. Toyota/Lexus, though, to their credit, does some of the best hybrid designs on the market....that's a well-known fact, regardless of how they actually deal with customers. Toyota introduced the first practical gas/electric hybrid to the U.S. market in August of 2000. Although the Honda Insight beat the Prius by some 7-8 months (being introduced here in January of 2000, IMO the 1Gen Insight was more of a toy than a true automobile for adults....with later models not that much of an improvement.

 

[IS-SV]

His two Jetta TDIs were built long before any of this software-evasion business surfaced. VW has sold those TDI's here for quite some time.


Probably not much different from the way any other automaker sells hybrids would. Toyota/Lexus, though, to their credit, does some of the best hybrid designs on the market....that's a well-known fact, regardless of how they actually deal with customers. Toyota introduced the first practical gas/electric hybrid to the U.S. market in August of 2000. Although the Honda Insight beat the Prius by some 7-8 months (being introduced here in January of 2000, IMO the 1Gen Insight was more of a toy than a true automobile for adults....with later models not that much of an improvement.

That being the case his diesels weren't even clean diesels anyways, NA. You should ask your car savvy friend his take on this recent VW development, he probably has opinion.

No that's not the answer to my question, we should probably have somebody actually in Sales answer. I'll refrase it along lines "how will Toy/Lex sales personnel address VW/Audi TDI deception/issue when brought up by customers". My guess most will answer professionally with hybrid facts and many advantages over supposedly clean diesel.

 

[mikeavelli]

If this blows up to mainstream media, it is a big blow to ALL diesels, the stigma that was already there will be worse and it seems not unfounded. VW obviously had to cheat. I just can't see Lexus jumping into diesel here when they have invested and bet on hybrids and possibly fuel cells.

 

[IS-SV]

I wouldn't be surprised if VW cheated in other countries too, we know that will be looked at carefully too. That could be a ticking bomb...

So in short we know why the TDI almost seemed too good to be true and appeared better than most passenger car diesels, mainly due to cheating. It was not better. POS.

Agreed all passenger car diesels are going to feel impact, VW and TDI the most. Mazda has delayed indefinitely getting 2.2L diesel into US market (without cheating apparently), because they can't get acceptable power and economy running clean without urea treatment, no surprise based on recent developments at VW. In UK and Aussie markets many of these diesel owners have serious DPF-related engine problems including oil dilution.

 

[mikeavelli]

Ahhhh, good point about other countries!

 

[Och]

If this blows up to mainstream media, it is a big blow to ALL diesels, the stigma that was already there will be worse and it seems not unfounded. VW obviously had to cheat. I just can't see Lexus jumping into diesel here when they have invested and bet on hybrids and possibly fuel cells.

Lexus is wise to not jump into Gasenwagens.

 

[IS-SV]

Mainstream media is all over this VW TDi diesel fiasco. As now shareholder wealth is being destroyed too which creates an additional set of financial problems for corporate. Lets see if criminal charges play out, because that's being looked at too.

 

[mmcartalk]

Mainstream media is all over this VW TDi diesel fiasco. As now shareholder wealth is being destroyed too which creates an additional set of financial problems for corporate. Lets see if criminal charges play out, because that's being looked at too.

I heard today (but it is unofficial) that the projected fines will be more than 37K a vehicle. That, if it holds up, would probably be more than the total average original sticker-price for each vehicle involved, over and above VW's profit on each one, which is only a small part of the sticker price (maybe 10% on average).

I'm not opposed to auto manufacturers having to answer for deliberate and avoidable wrongdoing....and there have been some unacceptable practices in the industry (Ford's Pinto fuel tanks and GM's ignition switches are classic examples). But IMO there should be reasonable limits....every dollar that gets paid out in big jury-awards and/or government-imposed fines means that vehicle prices will rise that much sooner, the company will have less money to pay their own workers (many of whom work hard and deserve raises), and fewer dollars will be left for future research and development......much of which is imposed by mandates from the government itself.

 

[Och]

I wonder if this can ultimately force VW out of the US market. But even if they rebound from this, this spells the end of affordable diesel vehicles in the US for sure. If they have to add the expensive SCR system to the low priced TDI Golfs and Jettas it will translate to very substantial price increase.

 

[mmcartalk]

Mainstream media is all over this VW TDi diesel fiasco. As now shareholder wealth is being destroyed too which creates an additional set of financial problems for corporate.

Well, it's true that the MSM is covering this story (and of course, we're into it because we're car people). But, even with the publicity it's getting (and still unfolding to some extent), it doesn't seem to have cut that deeply into what is currently the MSM's Big Three......Trump, Fiorina, and the Pope, which pretty much dominate.

 

[mikeavelli]

Mainstream media is all over this VW TDi diesel fiasco. As now shareholder wealth is being destroyed too which creates an additional set of financial problems for corporate. Lets see if criminal charges play out, because that's being looked at too.

Yeah it gained steam very fast.

 

[IS-SV]

Well, it's true that the MSM is covering this story (and of course, we're into it because we're car people). But, even with the publicity it's getting (and still unfolding to some extent), it doesn't seem to have cut that deeply into what is currently the MSM's Big Three......Trump, Fiorina, and the Pope, which pretty much dominate.

Far more mainstream news sources than MSM are covering the VW fiasco. And it's on every major TV news show in the country each evening since it began to unfold. But I agree the ridiculous Trump circus act gets mentioned every night too.

 

[IS-SV]

I heard today (but it is unofficial) that the projected fines will be more than 37K a vehicle. That, if it holds up, would probably be more than the total average original sticker-price for each vehicle involved, over and above VW's profit on each one, which is only a small part of the sticker price (maybe 10% on average).

I'm not opposed to auto manufacturers having to answer for deliberate and avoidable wrongdoing....and there have been some unacceptable practices in the industry (Ford's Pinto fuel tanks and GM's ignition switches are classic examples). But IMO there should be reasonable limits....every dollar that gets paid out in big jury-awards and/or government-imposed fines means that vehicle prices will rise that much sooner, the company will have less money to pay their own workers (many of whom work hard and deserve raises), and fewer dollars will be left for future research and development......much of which is imposed by mandates from the government itself.

I'm not going to jump to conclusions as to project whether fines are just or unjust (or talk about unrelated Pintos), especially since those projecting the fines on the news don't have a clue as to how big fines will end up being in the end. And criminal charges, also TBD still.

The reality is the damage to VW will most likely far exceed the US government fines. They will be paying current VW owners big time, incur huge expenses with recall and loose plenty of future revenue and profit. This was self-inflicted btw. Those that are actually auto enthusiasts know the VW TDI community is quite active and its expected many of those VW customers will be lost for life, plus they are very vocal with their (negative now) automotive opinions. Also some of us will tend to avoid doing business with unethical companies like Hyundai and now VW for example that have recent corporate culture that allows flagrant/intentional cheating of its core customers.

Yes, VW will likely be a smaller company when the smoke and stink clears, certainly not the #1 company in terms of sales units. Toyota will quietly regain that lead.

 

[mmcartalk]

Far more mainstream news sources than MSM are covering the VW fiasco.

??? Not sure I follow you, Mike. I thought MSM meant mainstream media. Anyhow, that's the intention I made in my post.

BTW, just as I write this, I'm watching a PBS Evening News story, with Gwen Ifll, on this VW issue.

 

[IS-SV]

Not sure I follow you, Mike. I thought MSM meant mainstream media.

My apologies when I mistook MSM for MSN. But again I agree with you that every night since VW fiasco broke out, I'm getting plenty of laughable Trump tv news too (to go with VW nightly updates).

 

[mmcartalk]

The reality is the damage to VW will most likely far exceed the US government fines.

(or talk about unrelated Pintos)

Maybe. It's a little early to be making definite predictions on that. A number of auto firms in the American market have had scandals before....and gotten through it. In this case, I felt that the previous Pinto and GM ignition-switch scandals were applicable, and I used them as I saw fit. I will admit, though, that, as of yet, no one seems to have been hurt or killed in the VW scandal...except maybe breathing in some extra diesel fumes which may not do their lungs any good. I don't exactly enjoy breathing diesel fumes myself.

Yes, VW will likely be a smaller company when the smoke and stink clears, certainly not the #1 company in terms of sales units.

In recent years, VW was not that big in America to start with.

Toyota will quietly regain that lead.

Toyota, justified or not, had enough problems of their own here a few years ago (even requiring Congressional hearings)....and got through it. So (likely) will VW, though I'm not going to make any absolute predictions.

 

[mmcartalk]

My apologies when I mistook MSM for MSN. But again I agree with you that every night since VW fiasco broke out, I'm getting plenty of laughable Trump tv news too (to go with VW nightly updates).

No problem, Mike.

Now I can see, though, why some people have problems with the Lincoln/Cadillac/Acura alphabet soups.

 

[IS-SV]

Maybe. It's a little early to be making definite predictions on that. A number of auto firms in the American market have had scandals before....and gotten through it. Using them as examples, IMO, is not unrelated, and I will use them if I see fit.

In recent years, VW was not that big in America to start with.

Toyota had enough problems of their own here a few years ago (even requiring Congressional hearings)....and got through it. So (likely) will VW, though I'm not going to make any absolute predictions.

Yes, lol, it's just a scandal. Certainly VW hopes it blows over like just another scandal.

VW was recently bragging about it's number #1 position in worldwide sales (not mentioning its already declining sales in the US prior to the fiasco). Not difficult to see impact on that ww sales chart, when they barely had a lead to begin with. Toyota wisely stayed out of that race for ww units, focusing on quality sales and profits.

As-if congressional hearings mean a lot by the do-nothing Congress.... VW will face more than that, including possibly the criminal justice system. Already stop sales are in place for future sales in next model year. And German government is starting investigation.

Lexus is still lukewarm and maybe today even tepid on diesel for a while.

 

[mmcartalk]

VW will face more than that, including possibly the criminal justice system.

OK, fine....predict away. We'll see. Some Mitsubishi executives went to prison a number of years ago. We'll see if anything follows for VW.

And Lexus is still lukewarm and maybe today even tepid on diesel for a little while.

I do agree, though, that this will make it less likely that we will see Lexus diesels.

 

[IS-SV]

OK, fine....predict away. We'll see.

OK fine, thanks, but that's not my prediction. (Did you think I dreamt up the criminal charges prediction in my spare time as fiction author?, jk)