Lexus Remains Lukewarm on Diesel

[krew]

krew

While Lexus is most commonly associated with hybrid technology, RX chief engineer Takayuki Katsuda discussed the possibility of Lexus adopting diesel technology with Australian website CarAdvice.

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[Lexticity]

New LX570 in diesel will be a 5 seater... wait and see..

 

[Lexus Cohen]

New LX570 in diesel will be a 5 seater... wait and see..

That doesn't make sense

 

[mikeavelli]

I'm not warm on it either. Harder to find here and more expensive.

 

[Gecko]

My best friend has an X5 35d that I've driven a few times... I like it, but I wouldn't really be in a rush to go by a diesel just because.

 

[Levi]

Diesel is ok for LX and GX, but only those. It depends on the region. In Western Europe we have no LX 570, but we have Land Cruise V8 Diesel.

 

[mmcartalk]

There are a number of advantages to diesel over gas, especially with low-end torque, but one of the disadvantages (and which may be impacting some sales) is the need for the extra maintenance with the periodic urea-injection. Some manufacturers, of course, include that service free for the first few years. Diesel fuel is also, in some places, not as easy to find as gas.

 

[IS-SV]

Another diesel maintenance cost and complexity/reliability factor is DPF and this applies to all clean diesels engines today, not just some. Nor do I see any mention of the purchase price premium because of higher cost for the clean diesel engine option (all).

I think Lexus is wisely looking well into the future in developed counties with its careful approach to diesel in passenger cars. 5 to 10 years from now will be the proof, IMHO.

 

[Och]

Diesel is ok for LX and GX, but only those. It depends on the region. In Western Europe we have no LX 570, but we have Land Cruise V8 Diesel.

AFAIK they sell LX450d in Russia and Australia.

 

[mmcartalk]

Another diesel maintenance cost and complexity/reliability factor is DPF and this applies to all clean diesels engines today, not just some.

Good point on the DPF. That's a factor that is often overlooked by the auto press when speaking of diesel maintenance.

Nor do I see any mention of the purchase price premium because of higher cost for the clean diesel engine option (all).

It's true that a diesel engine, especially a turbo-diesel, is sometimes more costly to produce than an equivalent gas engine, primarily because of the alloy-metal-strength needed in the block to withstand the stress of extremely high (20:1) compression-ratios. There's also the added hardware....the DPF you mention, water-separators for the fuel, urea-tank/injection, etc.....Diesels sometimes need heavier-duty batteries and starter motors. In Lincoln's case, though, the marketers decided to give the MKZ (mid-size sedan) gas and hybrid models the exact same base price ($35,190), even though the hybrid is undoubtedly more expensive to produce. We'll see if Lexus follows suit on a diesel, although, personally, I wouldn't bet on it.

Some countries, of course, also tax diesel vehicles at a different rate than gas-engines, which can determine what the customer actually ends up paying for it. Here in the U.S., diesels often qualify for Federal alternate-fuel tax credits, which can also vary by state.

 

[IS-SV]

Here in the U.S., diesels often qualify for Federal alternate-fuel tax credits, which can also vary by state.

Not aware of any state alternate fuel tax credit given to diesel passenger car buyers. What state (VA possibly)? Yes, I do remember TDI's with fed tax credit of $1300.

 

[IS-SV]

Not aware of any state alternate fuel tax credit given to diesel passenger car buyers. What state (VA possibly)? Yes, I do remember TDI's with fed tax credit of $1300.

Update/correction - The tax credit I mentioned previously enjoyed with Volkswagon TDI diesels has expired.

But I'm seeing preliminary reports that VW has much bigger problem (nightmare) with TDI 4 bangers, since they just admitted cheating on emissions tests as required for sale in US. Stay tuned for this potentially very expensive problem (like billions $) and recall for VW... it smells very bad

 

[mmcartalk]

Update/correction - The tax credit I mentioned previously enjoyed with Volkswagon TDI diesels has expired.

But I'm seeing preliminary reports that VW has much bigger problem (nightmare) with TDI 4 bangers, since they just admitted cheating on emissions tests as required for sale in US. Stay tuned for this potentially very expensive problem (like billions $) and recall for VW... it smells very bad

Yeah, they apparently used software that activates certain emission-functions only for certain EPA-required tests (the sensors can determine when a formal test is being done), and then deactivates/reprograms it once more for regular daily driving. I myself don't see any difference between that and the way some car owners use aftermarket chips (to increase power) on a daily basis, then take them out when and if an EPA test is required in their area (as it is in and around some major cities). But then, that gets into the area of politics and enforcement, which is probably beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[IS-SV]

Yep a few guys with chips vs 1/2 million TDI VW's (diesels, topic here) big difference and billions of $s of exposure for VW too.

 

[mmcartalk]

Yep a few guys with chips vs 1/2 million TDI VW's (diesels, topic here) big difference and billions of $s of exposure for VW too.

I didn't necessarily compare it in numbers, but in principle. Anyhow,I agree with you that a big fine for VW is coming. One can bet the monthly rent on that.

I've got some opinions on EPA's power, its relationship to automakers, and what it does, but I won't go into that here.

 

[IS-SV]

Agreed. And other costs will likely meet or exceed fines.

 

[mmcartalk]

One thing that concerns me (per the thread title) is that if VW gets socked with a huge fine for this, that's going to put even more of a damper on the likelihood of future Lexus diesels.

 

[Och]

One thing that concerns me (per the thread title) is that if VW gets socked with a huge fine for this, that's going to put even more of a damper on the likelihood of future Lexus diesels.

I don't know how it may affect the likehood of Lexus with diesel engine, but it EPA may also investigate other diesels engines that are already available and hopefully also EPA takes a look into gasoline direct injected engines as well. If you look at the exhaust pipe of almost any vehicle with direct injection, its likely to be covered with a layer of black soot on the inside, which means they are polluting.

 

[Och]

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds

 

[IS-SV]

I don't know how it may affect the likehood of Lexus with diesel engine, but it EPA may also investigate other diesels engines that are already available and hopefully also EPA takes a look into gasoline direct injected engines as well. If you look at the exhaust pipe of almost any vehicle with direct injection, its likely to be covered with a layer of black soot on the inside, which means they are polluting.

. Agreed, this VW fiasco impacts mostly VW automaker. Their reputation for the TDI (at least in the US market) is shot and done. Clean-diesel, no way. Owners of TDI were lied to and cheated, VW will lose many US customers for life. This TDI was advertised as the clean alternative to Toyota/Lexus hybrids, what a POS. The other costs to VW will most likely exceed the billions in fines they have to pay (due to recalls, compensation to current owners for lost resale value and other costs). Also if and when the fix/recall is implemented for the 2009-2015 TDI engines impacted, I wouldn't be surprised that those engines will have degraded performance, lower fuel efficiency and possibly increased problems (both reliability and maintenance) going forward.

. Yes, Lexus was taking cautious approach to diesel well before this VW fiasco broke out for a variety of valid reasons mentioned earlier.

. DI gasoline engines are already being looked from emissions standpoint in Europe (and I wouldn't be surprised when EPA gets involved too if they aren't already), mainly due to soot output as you and I have noticed on our (several) DI gas cars. Most likely outcome will be a future requirement for simple particulate trap, essentially a simpler/less expensive/more reliable version of DPF used on clean diesels today. I've seen cost estimates for this kind of simple particulate trap for gasoline DI engines that are well under $100, hardly a deal-killer, when the DI engines deliver significantly better fuel economy and performance than non-DI versions. The reality today is modern gasoline (usually turbo DI) are improving fuel efficiency at a more rapid pace than clean diesels which will likely play out in near term sales numbers.