Trexus

Admirer
Founding Member
Messages
411
Reaction score
509
I noticed that you few times talked adding of IS300h but it is still available outside US :)
Yes, you are correct. I just wish Lexus would bring the IS 300h to North America. It would do well here in the U.S. and Canada. Not a lot of Americans know that Lexus has hybrids. Lexus needs to expand it's hybrid presence here. Maybe this new prototype coupe above will be a hybrid or electric?

ES 300h
IS 300h (Please bring to North America)
LS 500h

LC 500h

UX 250h
NX 300h
RX 450h
 

Will1991

Follower
Messages
211
Reaction score
328
In my opinion, it's a bit crazy to see our current ES as a Toyota, it's clearly a premium product! Both Camry and ES are very well built and reasonable priced for their segment.

If our current ES with this kind of quality was a Toyota product, Lexus was going to be direct competition to RR and Bentley....

I do agree, Lexus needs more F products (ES F, LC F) and a TNGA IS/CT... But I still don't get how a car with less than 300hp needs to be RWD in this day and age with an electric motor at the real axle... How many real buyers do need RWD for lower powered versions? We can ask BMW's 1 and 2 series owners...

Maybe, we should ask Lexus to give our IS300h globally, we should ask to give some real performance models (not a underpowered GS F that was a lot slower than the competition) as a halo products, we should ask for a proper product life time (not 8~10 years cycles as we're seeing)... Don't see how a RWD hybrid medium saloon with 200hp is going to improve Lexus as a brand (see last gen-GS300h).
 

maiaramdan

Admirer
Messages
863
Reaction score
627
@Will1991 , I think you didn't get inside the new generation Avalon yet, it's the same exact fit and finish with the same hard plastic places, I even thinking Avalon is a way much more sportier even everyone keep saying that both are the same
 

Will1991

Follower
Messages
211
Reaction score
328
@Will1991 , I think you didn't get inside the new generation Avalon yet, it's the same exact fit and finish with the same hard plastic places, I even thinking Avalon is a way much more sportier even everyone keep saying that both are the same
It's not available here in Europe, our biggest sedan is the Camry which I think was a enormous leap forward from the Avensis it replaced, but nowhere near Lexus ES.
 

maiaramdan

Admirer
Messages
863
Reaction score
627
Aha I donno you are European
Sorry
But honestly I was astonished of it's fit & finish and I made a test drive to it while I was in KSA month ago and I can clearly 100% say that it's better than the ES in every single aspect
 

Carmaker1

Admirer
Messages
579
Reaction score
1,601
I'm hoping this means 4 door coupe which would make a TON of sense. That is my gut...

The 8 series is just a name change, its just the new 6 series.....
Exactly. Said this so many times off of here the past 2 years, even in the presence of BMW Group marketing exec, who he himself was lost on WHICH model BMW was ACTUALLY developing/testing in 2016 and embarrassed to admit he did not know, because someone pulled the rug out and changed the nameplates around unbeknownst to many journalists, not to mention BMW's own marketing staff.🤣

The REAL 8-Series was supposed to be a 2021 model, while the 6er (today's faux 8-Series) a 2018/19 model. What happened is that they switched things around last minute in 2016.

Heck, the day BMW approved the final designs in 2015, it was for the 6-Series Coupe and Cabriolet G15/G14 model codes, NOT 8-Series. I can't believe most folks can't see through it. The X7 is a bigger X5, hence no V12.

8-Series doesn't have a V12 either like the original, because it was designed as an evolved previous gen 6-Series, with simply better quality. BMW's modular OKL allows them to mix-n-match, even though unlike the 7-Series, they are not really flagship material.

The LC 500 is really the SC 500, with a worthy higher positioning and new flagship aligned nameplate, unlike BMW plastering a flagship badge on a sub-flagship car and banking serious profit. Sheer brilliance of BMW, as imagine if a GS-based coupe was marketed as the LC and sold at $111,000, with a ridiculous margin.
 

Ian Schmidt

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,529
Reaction score
2,497
If Lexus actually tried that they'd be murdered in the automotive press. It's not like it used to be, but BMW still gets away with things others (even Mercedes) can't.
 

maiaramdan

Admirer
Messages
863
Reaction score
627
I still see even I am sad with a lot of decisions made in the current LS I still it as number 2 handling in all mid / large sedan in par with the Ghibli and better than the 5 handling wise

I am sad they missed the V8 with this one, especially after they built it very perfectly needs that V8
 

F1 Silver Arrows

Follower
Messages
450
Reaction score
663
If Lexus actually tried that they'd be murdered in the automotive press. It's not like it used to be, but BMW still gets away with things others (even Mercedes) can't.
Certain manufacturers can get away with certain things. For example, Lexus is the only big player luxury manufacturer that's producing FWD cars that have a similar architecture to Toyotas. BMW doesn't do that, Mercedes doesn't do that, and Audi doesn't do it either (I'm not talking modular platforms but the exact platforms used).
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
2,170
Certain manufacturers can get away with certain things. For example, Lexus is the only big player luxury manufacturer that's producing FWD cars that have a similar architecture to Toyotas. BMW doesn't do that, Mercedes doesn't do that, and Audi doesn't do it either (I'm not talking modular platforms but the exact platforms used).
If you are talking about transverse FWD architecture then you are obviously wrong. BBA all build a considerable number of transverse FWD vehicles; in fact these are the majority of their sales today because of China. Mercedes uses MFA/MFA2; BMW uses UKL/UKL2; Audi uses MQB. All these platforms are also shared with 'lesser' companies to reduce cost.

Actually switching to the transverse FWD MQB and the longitudinal RWD MSB for different segments is a long overdue decision for Audi. Their longitudinal FWD layout is an 80s relic that was already obsolete in the 90s and somehow on this forum it is considered the 'right' way to do FWD.
 

F1 Silver Arrows

Follower
Messages
450
Reaction score
663
If you are talking about transverse FWD architecture then you are obviously wrong. BBA all build a considerable number of transverse FWD vehicles; in fact these are the majority of their sales today because of China. Mercedes uses MFA/MFA2; BMW uses UKL/UKL2; Audi uses MQB. All these platforms are also shared with 'lesser' companies to reduce cost.

Actually switching to the transverse FWD MQB and the longitudinal RWD MSB for different segments is a long overdue decision for Audi. Their longitudinal FWD layout is an 80s relic that was already obsolete in the 90s and somehow on this forum it is considered the 'right' way to do FWD.
Nope. Clearly you didn't look deeply into what I was implying. Three points I have to make.

1. In case you missed it, everyone is shitting on BMW for moving towards FWD platforms that's shared with Mini (like the 1-Series and X1). Not sure where you've been this entire time. For a brand like BMW who always swore that they never would go FWD is sacrilege.

To actually spend money on a quality entry-level RWD product, which BMW was famous for their entire existence, and also cars like the last generation RWD 1-Series was a famous for too. It was a great product, and people actually recognize that and do buy those cars.

I totally don't believe the argument that "most people can't tell the difference between FWD and RWD". You damn well can tell the difference. You take a solid last generation BMW 1-Series and compare it with an equivalent FWD car of that class and the difference is worlds apart. This is BMW's bullsh*t excuse to cut costs. But people will notice and will run away from the brand. I'm calling it right now, if this 1-Series drops as hard as I think it will in Europe and other places where it's offered, they'll immediately revert it back to the RWD platform. Just like how Porsche will be doing the same thing by moving away from those messed up Subaru-esque 4-cylinders that sound like they're choking on concrete and back to those sweet flat-sixes. The only disadvantage that the RWD 1-Series had was interior space and that was also another reason why they did this. But despite that shortcoming, the 1-Series was one of BMW's most popular vehicles in terms of sales and popularity, and it was a good car overall while being not too overly expensive.

So who cares about the BBA product? Now I swear to god I'm not being racist, but most Chinese people I see (in and out of China) buy broke spec cars from luxury marques with the absolute worst quality (yeah and it's FWD too) just because of the "badge". They deal with the worst kind of cost cutting from manufacturers and it's quite disgusting. The new Corolla, Civic and 3 isn't this cheap anymore. So what cars am I talking about? I'm looking at cars like the first generation Mercedes-Benz CLA, the FWD BMW X1, Audi Q3, and the 4 door BMW 2-Series. Literally I don't see any other demographic buying these cars where I am from except the Chinese and young influencers who want to sit their a** in a German luxury car so they can pose and brag to their friends who are driving a Civic. Once they take note (after they pull their heads down from the clouds), they note all the flaws and jump into an entry-level Lexus or an entry-level Porsche (maybe not the best idea because they charge a boat load for options). Hell, even Lincoln is making a really good impression.

2. Clearly you don't understand how BMW, Mercedes and Audi work with their FWD platforms. Because you're purposely missing the fact that those FWD based platforms offer a permanent AWD system that is also quite RWD biased. They're effective, and isn't an element that's a demerit unlike those basic traction control AWD systems you see in Lexus vehicles. Name me ONE Lexus FWD car that has AWD. Don't count hybrids. Right, you couldn't find any. Hence that makes your entire argument a moot point. Lexus should be set on fire for what they're doing, but literally nobody cares. And EVERYBODY buys FWD Lexus vehicles, but as they evolve and get better, FWD naturally becomes out of favour and it needs to be RWD based to be able to support more power and torque.

Power sells cars and if Lexus wants to stay relevant they can't gimp out on that. Also I must add, since their inception they had FWD based vehicles that's shared with Toyotas, so one, it's been accepted within Lexus, the enthusiasts and is competitive as well, and two, they're just SO DAMN GOOD (and lookie here, I am someone who is not the biggest fan of FWD Lexus products but even I admit they're that good) and nobody can dare complain about it. I mean ffs let's look at the Lexus ES. It beat the 3-Series and C-Class in a comparison test a long time ago when it was more compact. As it grew larger and moved upmarket, it became the best FWD luxury sedan. Period. But it doesn't make their excuse any better to keep producing FWD cars that literally cut what feels like more than 50% of the power and torque under acceleration solely because the platform and chassis can't handle it. Why the hell would you put 301 horsepower and 267 lb-ft of torque in a car that suffers from wheel hopping, cutting power and a boat load of torque steer (though the torque steer is way more inoffensive than the Camry and the Avalon).

Also, where is the AWD? At least even if it had AWD, it would have appealed to a wider market, and it would help with sales (which you initially argued about) and most of all, it would have helped in terms of traction and performance. Point is, Lexus is super good at it and mastered it to a certain point where it's actually quite hard to do better than that. Also, Lexus doesn't cut costs in their entry-level cars as much as BMW, Mercedes and Audi. Anyways for the one billionth time, a RWD platform switch is necessary.

3. And jesus christ, look, I get that you're from China and they're an important market, but will all due respect, not everything is about them. Literally you mention China regarding anything. But what about the North American, South American, Western European, Middle Eastern, Eastern European/Russian, Southeast Asian, African and most of all, the Japanese markets?

You're literally talking about a market who wanted BMW to make their nose grille of their flagship sedan 40% larger because they think it looks better (those are words literally taken from the manufacturer themselves, so nobody can deny this). Now watch 7-Series sales take a sharp drop everywhere else except China (ignore the fact that there will be an initial rise in sales because it is a new model). It's that ugly. The more objectively attractive Lexus LS isn't even generating that much sales either. Granted, the LS has it's own little flaws but even that poor car is suffering. Every flagship luxury sedan is suffering bar the S-Class.

Also to close, you've even once admitted you know that I talk from an enthusiast standpoint on another thread, and constructively suggested me to leave the forums because of my anger from their continuous mess ups, so I don't know why you're even making this post in the first place. You know from what standpoint I am talking about. But even on your talk of sales, I gave you examples as to why you're incorrect.
 
Last edited:

Ian Schmidt

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,529
Reaction score
2,497
Certain manufacturers can get away with certain things. For example, Lexus is the only big player luxury manufacturer that's producing FWD cars that have a similar architecture to Toyotas.
Acura got away with it too, or they did 20 years ago when it was still considered a viable brand. And their platform sharing was always more egregious than Toyota/Lexus; you could literally bolt any part from an Integra into a Civic and vice-versa, which is why they were high-theft cars.
 

F1 Silver Arrows

Follower
Messages
450
Reaction score
663
Acura got away with it too, or they did 20 years ago when it was still considered a viable brand. And their platform sharing was always more egregious than Toyota/Lexus; you could literally bolt any part from an Integra into a Civic and vice-versa, which is why they were high-theft cars.
Well they did (did is the key word here), but does anyone give two craps about Acura today? Or as you just said, nobody cared 20 years ago when they were actually a decent brand. They're now irrelevant next to Buick. Literally the only car I would be interested (barely though) in buying is the RDX and the $200,000 NSX. The ILX is literally a Civic in drag, the TLX is worse than our dinosaur of an IS, the RLX "flagship" would get its ass kicked by an E43 AMG, the MDX is outclassed by the GLE, X5, Q7 and most importantly, the RX. Literally only 1/3rd of their cars are worth buying. And isn't it a shame that they have a six car line up while a company like Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, Audi, BMW, Lincoln, Cadillac, Infiniti have more or less two dozens of configurations? It's a total shame.

Hence why I go back to my original point, Lexus is the only one who gets away with it for the following reasons I mentioned above to ssun30. Despite my annoyances with this company, I sometimes forget how good they are.

EDIT: I added the Q7 and edited my post a little bit. 😊
 
Last edited:

MichaelL

Fan
Messages
47
Reaction score
78
Well they did (did is the key word here), but does anyone give two craps about Acura today? Or as you just said, nobody cared 20 years ago when they were actually a decent brand. They're now irrelevant next to Buick. Literally the only car I would be interested (barely though) in buying is the RDX and the $200,000 NSX. The ILX is literally a Civic in drag, the TLX is worse than our dinosaur of an IS, the RLX "flagship" would get its ass kicked by an E43 AMG, the MDX is outclassed by the GLE, X5, and RX. Literally only 1/3rd of their cars are worth buying. And isn't it a shame that they have a six car line up while a company like Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, Audi, BMW, Lincoln, Cadillac, Infiniti have more or less two dozens of configurations? It's a total shame.

Hence why I go back to my original point, Lexus is the only one who gets away with it for the following reasons I mentioned above to ssun30. Despite my annoyances with this company, I sometimes forget how good they are.
The ILX is worse than a Civic in drag... it is a PREVIOUS generation Civic in drag! And that version of the Civic wasn't even a good one. It is probably the worst car on sale for the price today. It is a complete and utter embarrassment. I don't know how Honda can allow this to happen... it shows how far Acura has fallen. They have one good car in their line up, the RDX, and the MDX is decent.... the rest? Terrible. I am excluding the NSX because it isn't really a player.
 

maiaramdan

Admirer
Messages
863
Reaction score
627
From what I read @F1 Silver Arrows posts, he just wants the same as me, he wants LEXUS to stay the FR sporty and yet luxury that was it's mission at start

Honestly, now if you delete the brand Toyota and put it's lineup in Lexus it will be so smooth transition and no one will be affected, same if we make the opposite case and put Lexus models in Toyota lineup!

That wasn't the case at the beginning when the LS was Celsior, the GS was Aristo & the ES was Windom, taking a look at VAG how close they build cars they even have the same switches between Skoda, Seat, Volkswagen, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini and Porsche, they're so close and yet they are totally different and you really can't delete any brand of them at all and already compete with each other in every category from the city Polo/ Ibiza / Fabia to the high performance coupe crossover Q8 / Urus / Cayenne Coupe
 
Last edited:

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
2,170
I was simply pointing out the fact that Lexus is not the only one getting away from building transverse FWD cars. There's no need to write an essay to argue against that. And nowhere did I say it is right for all these manufacturers to build these transverse FWD cars. I personally despise those 10k chinese buyers who buy that Inline-3 FWD X1 and the laughably underpowered ES200 every month, too. But just because I don't like the taste of these people doesn't mean I have to dismiss the existence of them. I know I tend to get a lot of hate on this forum for seemingly arguing for transverse FWD cars. No I don't. (You should know I don't just because all my favourite cars are longitudinal RWD or 4x4) I think there's a disconnection of message here.

I always believe they should switch to longitudinal platforms but for a different reason: electrification. Transverse platforms will have very little relevance once everything is electrified, since their biggest advantage (packaging) becomes irrelevant. Having most of their current products based on transverse platforms forces them to go through all the engineering again to design a completely new e-TNGA platform. If they planned their products around GA-N/L they could make the switch way faster.

And yes their clear lack of awareness of how important AWD has become worldwide is ridiculous. The prime example being the GA-C platform not even designed to be compatible with mechanical AWD since the beginning. They are the first company I've seen to launch a crossover without an AWD system for their gas-only options.
 
Last edited:

maiaramdan

Admirer
Messages
863
Reaction score
627
@ssun30, I know what exactly you mean sir

My problem is as follows

Toyota and Lexus got only 5 logical solution incase TMC want Lexus to stay
1- Toyota becomes premium maker and compete with luxury maker Lexus ie " Audi & Volkswagen "

Or

2- Lexus becomes premium from it's current Luxury and compete away from ze Germans

Or

3- Lexus becomes a Jaguar / Maserati / Porsche luxury sport maker leaving the ES for Toyota as Windom as before and upgrading Mazda to take the role of the premium which is my preferable choice so you will have Toyota as the whole mainstream to luxury high end as is, you will have Mazda premium to compete with Acura, Lincoln, Buick and then you will have Lexus in new league than ze German 3

4- delete any intersected vehicles as RAV4 / NX one need to go , RX-7s / Highlander , ES / Avalon

5- have a total different group of management in the 2 companies, separate them entirely from each other

Other than any of those 5 or parts from here parts from there from all of them we may see Lexus as the new Acura / Infiniti

Honda can remove the plug now from Acura
NSX already sold everywhere as Honda
RLX already will be re-sold as Legend
TLX it's simply far worse dynamic wise from the current Accord same goes for the civic ILX
So on paper Acura got only 2 cars exclusive MDX & RDX which can be easily sold under Honda

Infiniti is even worse , with the next Skyline and if Nissan really wants to retain its lost sporty heritage they need to kill Infiniti lineup and replace it with the original names as skyline sedan instead of Q40 skyline coupe instead of Q50 CIMA and so on and their current CUVs lineup already been destroyed
 
Last edited:

mediumhot

Follower
Messages
177
Reaction score
242
RLX is actually original Acura product believe it or not. It's only banded as Legend in Japan pretty much like how RWD Lexus were branded Toyotas because Lexus didn't exist there at the time. Unlike previous generations Acura Legend/RL that were developed to be global Honda Legend first, current RLX was built to be Acura RLX first and foremost, shocking right? LOL. It's also a test bed for future hybrid powertrain setups in upcoming models.

Sad thing for Lexus is that Acura will offer V6 Turbo option across the range within a single year. From RDX, new TLX and all the way up to whatever they would come up as new model. That's something even Infiniti is not able to do either despite already selling 3.0 TT but due to platform differences that engine is a no go to any of their SUVs. And then there will be new ILX as reskined current Civic with stellar 2.0 turbo.

Acura has finally got their 5 minutes after sticking with FWD/no V8 philosophy all of these decades. RDX is a very first step toward Lexus like reskins where ES/RX are absolute benchmarks how you reskin a vehicle. So Acura is in a good place, they are aware they will never be true Tier 1 luxury brand but they are willing to try to punch above their weight with NSX and upcoming hybrid Legend
 
Top