Lexus LS Chief Designer Explains His Creative Process

[Carmaker1]

I hadn't logged in awhile, but I really want to respond to anyone that quoted me later today and explain what I meant, in more detail. Just need to think a bit. I don't want Lexus to keep making the same missteps, that Infiniti keeps making with product planning.

They are doing well by comparison and carrying the torch for Japanese luxury (if not Asian luxury overall), but cannot continue falling short in competitiveness in the mid and upper ranges.

 

[spwolf]

I have no problems with the character lines, I think they work pretty well. The problem with the larger overhangs, aside from the subjective discussion of styling, is an objective one. It means less efficient packaging of the vehicle and slightly more difficulty driving and parking in tight city streets. Now maybe that's not a big deal anymore for Lexus given that it wants to be a more aspirational brand and not so practical anymore. Fine I mean that's debatable. Now the other problem with the larger overhangs is that they are detrimental to performance. Lexus is now much more serious about handling and overall vehicle performance and dynamics than they were in the past. However larger overhangs detract from that because they are detrimental to the moment of inertia of the vehicle.

Well there are two things to mention here:
a. Every single vehicle from TNGA has shorter overhangs proportion to the rest of the body, and stretched wheelbase.
b. Shorter wheelbase makes vehicle easier to turn in, so it handles curves better but is worse on highways/bumps/etc.

 

[spwolf]

LS is not a bad car by any stretch, and there are many things about it that I really like... especially the interior. But it's really foolish to launch a flagship luxury car and then before it's on sale, show a Toyota product with Apple CarPlay. I am still struggling with powertrains as well, with reports of the 500h being choppy and unrefined in real world driving, and the TT V6 delivering lackluster acceleration and performance numbers. On top of that, it's the biggest LS ever and has less rear seat room than a Honda Accord. These are a few things that, IMO, show this car was an 80% effort and could have used a little more development time.

LS back seat vs design was conscious decision by Lexus, that has nothing to do with time spent developing it. Hows TT V6 delivering lackluster acceleration? Wasnt it fastest vehicle on MT test, on their track?

LS does not exist in a vacuum, CarPlay will come in next MY, when it is ready - first Toyota to have CarPlay will start sales in 4-5 months. I have read a hundred reviews of Tesla and only last week I learned that they dont have CarPlay or Android Auto in any of their vehicles.

Apparently, Lexus LS is leading the charge for Lexus in Japan, brand sales up 68% on LS500 and LS500h sales, so "someone" likes it. They sold 4400 LS's in 2 months, making it their best selling model in Japan, with next best NX having 50% less sales.

Edit: we can see sales data here: http://www.jada.or.jp/contents/data/ranking.html

Google translator works good enough to get the info. They announced 9500 orders in first month, back in November. Sales goal is 600 (it will come down to that in 2nd or 3rd year).

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Regarding CarPlay next MY, will the 2018 LS be an abbreviated model year with the 2019 LS coming when the other 2019s do in the fall? If so, it might be worth waiting a few months to get CarPlay.

 

[spwolf]

Regarding CarPlay next MY, will the 2018 LS be an abbreviated model year with the 2019 LS coming when the other 2019s do in the fall? If so, it might be worth waiting a few months to get CarPlay.

dunno, but it seems like a sure bet that by the end of the year, all vehicles with Entune 3.0 and Enform 2.0 will be updated with Alexa and Carplay.

 

[Gecko]

LS back seat vs design was conscious decision by Lexus, that has nothing to do with time spent developing it. Hows TT V6 delivering lackluster acceleration? Wasnt it fastest vehicle on MT test, on their track?

I am sure it was a conscious decision - a consciously wrong one, by most accounts. Unless they are looking to displace a high number of their former LS customers, the back seat should have been designed differently.

Regarding the TT V6, take a look at many of the test numbers. Lexus quotes 0-60 in 4.6 and I have yet to see it under 5.3 seconds. Many reports of a buggy transmission, hesitation, and an engine that feels leisurely when moving 5k lbs of automobile. Not things I've ever heard about any LS before.

LS does not exist in a vacuum, CarPlay will come in next MY, when it is ready - first Toyota to have CarPlay will start sales in 4-5 months. I have read a hundred reviews of Tesla and only last week I learned that they dont have CarPlay or Android Auto in any of their vehicles.

This is great, but LS has always been the "best of Lexus" - the flagship with all of the tech and hardware that later trickles down to other models - and the omission of CarPlay is hard to swallow when Toyotas will have it before the brand new LS.

Apparently, Lexus LS is leading the charge for Lexus in Japan, brand sales up 68% on LS500 and LS500h sales, so "someone" likes it. They sold 4400 LS's in 2 months, making it their best selling model in Japan, with next best NX having 50% less sales.

Edit: we can see sales data here: http://www.jada.or.jp/contents/data/ranking.html

Google translator works good enough to get the info. They announced 9500 orders in first month, back in November. Sales goal is 600 (it will come down to that in 2nd or 3rd year).

Not surprising to me. Japanese customers are notoriously fickle and always have to have the latest and greatest. I'm glad the car has had such a great reception there.

 

[spwolf]

I am sure it was a conscious decision - a consciously wrong one, by most accounts. Unless they are looking to displace a high number of their former LS customers, the back seat should have been designed differently.

Regarding the TT V6, take a look at many of the test numbers. Lexus quotes 0-60 in 4.6 and I have yet to see it under 5.3 seconds. Many reports of a buggy transmission, hesitation, and an engine that feels leisurely when moving 5k lbs of automobile. Not things I've ever heard about any LS before.

Was it really that wrong? We will see by sales... with most of their current customers dying from old age, they had to do something.

As to the LS500, I never read a review where old LS beat competition on track, it was slower in everything. LS500 is much more a drivers car, to the point of being the best drivers car in the class. So thats actually not correct, check LS500 comparo in MT and numbers there.

 

[Gecko]

Was it really that wrong? We will see by sales... with most of their current customers dying from old age, they had to do something.

As to the LS500, I never read a review where old LS beat competition on track, it was slower in everything. LS500 is much more a drivers car, to the point of being the best drivers car in the class. So thats actually not correct, check LS500 comparo in MT and numbers there.

I think saying "current customers are dying from old age" is a little extreme. I know many LS owners who are in their 40s and 50s, and a handful who are 65+... just as any other flagship luxury sedan.

The complaints I am hearing about the back seat are mostly from people who carry clients in the back of the car - realtors, business men, etc - who are shocked at how much smaller it is than LS 460L and how much tighter it feels than even LS 460 SWB. Maybe Lexus doesn't care about repeat buyers for LS and feels that they want an entirely new demographic. That seems foolish, but it could be the case... however, it seems like an oversight to not have designed a spacious, comfortable back seat in a full size car like this.

Historically, the most important aspects of the powertrain to LS buyers have generally been smoothness and how effortless acceleration feels. While LS has never been a drag strip champion, the reports of transmission hesitation and a powertrain that is strained under heavy acceleration are decidedly "un-LS-like." So, yes, those are correct and have been documented in the real world. Handling is obviously different - the car has been widely praised for that.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

This is great, but LS has always been the "best of Lexus" - the flagship with all of the tech and hardware that later trickles down to other models - and the omission of CarPlay is hard to swallow when Toyotas will have it before the brand new LS.

It's typical Toyota though. The original iPod/iPhone integration came first to Scion, then Camry/Corolla/ES/RX, then GS and LS. Not that that makes it less infuriating.

 

[krew]

Regarding CarPlay next MY, will the 2018 LS be an abbreviated model year with the 2019 LS coming when the other 2019s do in the fall? If so, it might be worth waiting a few months to get CarPlay.

Not too put too much weight on infotainment, but I would wait for CarPlay to come to the LS before purchasing. Just keep driving your current LS until then.

 

[spwolf]

I think saying "current customers are dying from old age" is a little extreme. I know many LS owners who are in their 40s and 50s, and a handful who are 65+... just as any other flagship luxury sedan.

Well, I think the average was over 66 years old for LS, and no wonder sales were less and less.

After Japanese numbers, I am certain this will do great in those markets where it never did well (and it never did well in Japan). Japan alone sold 10 month of US supply in first month of sales, while I dont think previous model sold more than hundreds, simply because it was not too different from large Toyota's available there. And new LS is very expensive in Japan, with base 500 at around 95k and base hybrid at over 105k.

Question about US market is will it turn back more customers than bring in? We will see soon enough.

 

[ssun30]

The complaints I am hearing about the back seat are mostly from people who carry clients in the back of the car - realtors, business men, etc - who are shocked at how much smaller it is than LS 460L and how much tighter it feels than even LS 460 SWB. Maybe Lexus doesn't care about repeat buyers for LS and feels that they want an entirely new demographic. That seems foolish, but it could be the case... however, it seems like an oversight to not have designed a spacious, comfortable back seat in a full size car like this.

This. While I appreciate their commitment to making the LS a better driver's car. It is first and foremost for chauffeuring clients, so the rear seat should always be the priority over the front. At this point the LS Executive is a no-buy for me because there are way more options out there with more rear room; even an Alphard is objectively better at doing the job. It's unaccepetable that TMC's best VIP transport after the Century is a minivan.

Apparently, Lexus LS is leading the charge for Lexus in Japan, brand sales up 68% on LS500 and LS500h sales, so "someone" likes it. They sold 4400 LS's in 2 months, making it their best selling model in Japan, with next best NX having 50% less sales.

Lexus japan sales numbers is the least relevant source you could use. Do you think those buyers have a choice? The LS literally has no competition in Japan, period.
The Century - too prestigious, more for politicians than business people.
European Imports - related to Yakuza (a wide-spread social stereotype).
The Crown - too watered-down, more of a fleet vehicle.
Infiniti/Acura - what are these?

If you were a senior management or business owner, and didn't want a minivan, the LS is your only choice.

 

[spwolf]

Lexus japan sales numbers is the least relevant source you could use. Do you think those buyers have a choice? The LS literally has no competition in Japan, period.
The Century: too prestigious, more for politicians than business people.
European Imports: related to Yakuza (a wide-spread social stereotype).
The Crown: too watered-down, more of a fleet vehicle.
Infiniti/Acura: what are these?

If you were a senior management or business owner, and didn't want a minivan, the LS is your only choice.

Actually Mercedes has outsold Lexus in Japan for a long time, maybe always (too late to check source, but for past 4-5 years for sure). BMW is also not far away. So Lexus was always facing an uphill battle in Japan due to existence of so many luxurious Toyota's that sell at much cheaper prices.

Last year Lexus sold 45k vehicles in japan total, so you can imagine how LS one month pre-orders getting to more than 20% of Lexus overall sales is a huge number of them... equivalent would be 60k preorders for new LS in USA, which is likely around all of their sedan lineup together .

So yeah, Japanese numbers for LS are a big win for Lexus, and Japanese market is likely a main reason they changed it up to something a bit different from before.

 

[CIF]

Yes, it is obvious that the 5LS design was a conscious decision by Lexus. Whether it was the right choice or not remains to be seen, and this debate may never be truly settled. Lexus consciously chose to mostly ignore long-time LS buyers, and chose to mainly go after a new buyer demographic with the 5LS.

 

[ssun30]

Actually Mercedes has outsold Lexus in Japan for a long time, maybe always (too late to check source, but for past 4-5 years for sure). BMW is also not far away. So Lexus was always facing an uphill battle in Japan due to existence of so many luxurious Toyota's that sell at much cheaper prices.

The relative numbers in overall sales are not relevant. The typical MB/BMW comparison does not apply. The important fact is that the LS has a specific market locked down, even though that market is small. If anything, japanese LS owners are their most loyal customers that are also least likely to feel alienated by the aggressive styling. This surge in LS sales is the direct result of this very long period without an update. The previous Lexus owners have been waiting for this car for so long; of course they all get the new one in a heartbeat. The extra sales are unlikely to be from LS suddenly becoming more competitive and S-Class/7-Series owners jumping ship.

With the exception of a 3.5L engine with lower taxes, which LS buyers don't really care, I don't find any design feature that is targeted towards japanese buyers on the 5LS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

It is first and foremost for chauffeuring clients, so the rear seat should always be the priority over the front.

From a US POV that all makes sense. LS/S-Class/7-Series here are 99% owner-driven and they don't often haul passengers (aside from their own kids and lunch trips with co-workers). Professionals who do need to haul passengers almost exclusively drive SUVs. My realtor drives a Toyota Highlander, as an example, and the RX, BMW X-series, and M-B SUVs are also common in that role. So from that POV it makes perfect sense that the Alphard is a better people mover. My guess is that Toyota thinks Asia is going to shift more towards the US model as the SUV craze goes global.