Lexus LS Chief Designer Explains His Creative Process

[mikeavelli]

*sigh* If ya can't teach em, just ignore em. You've literally deflected from everything I said and you just proved me your ignorance. I'm not going to bother to explain why you're wrong. I can see this getting escalated. Someone please take over. I'm out.

The funny thing is Mr. Burns so angrily stating his opinion proves Lexus correct in they know some people will hate their designs and they are okay with that.

If one likes a traditional 3 box, the new LS isn't for you. I am also not in love with the design but for a LS and for a car in this class it might just be the most bold and daring. I think the Panamara matches it for the exact opposite reasons, with no grill and being a hatch.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

The funny thing is Mr. Burns so angrily stating his opinion proves Lexus correct in they know some people will hate their designs and they are okay with that.

If one likes a traditional 3 box, the new LS isn't for you. I am also not in love with the design but for a LS and for a car in this class it might just be the most bold and daring. I think the Panamara matches it for the exact opposite reasons, with no grill and being a hatch.

True. That being said. I adore the S-Class, I love the LS, the Panamera. Definitely my top 3 favorites ever.

 

[mikeavelli]

True. That being said. I adore the S-Class, I love the LS, the Panamera. Definitely my top 3 favorites ever.

At first I found the W222 a bit blah but after a few years it hasn't aged a bit. A beautiful design and it influenced the C Class (got it right) and E class (meh).

I also am head over heels over the S8, I never thought I would like a "big A3/A4" but damn its pretty perfect to me.

 

[Gecko]

Let's keep this conversation on track and knock off the personal insults and jabs, please.

Thanks.

 

[spwolf]

There is no "European" design. There are vast differences how different brands design vehicles in Europe. Usually could be related to their home countries but not always.

Same can be said of Japan, Toyota, Nissan and Honda designs are not similar.

 

[zeusus]

Okay I'll bite.

#1 rule in flagship sedan design, the core of the car MUST ALWAYS BE STRAIGHT. This gives the car solidity.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was really only asking for your credentials, not to scribble lines over an already completed production luxury car and attempt to claim expertise with it.

Do you have any experience as a senior automotive designer?

The S Class, which many can confidently claim is the class benchmark, does not have straight lines but it appears to be solid.

 

[Mr. Burns]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was really only asking for your credentials, not to scribble lines over an already completed production luxury car and attempt to claim expertise with it.

Do you have any experience as a senior automotive designer?

The S Class, which many can confidently claim is the class benchmark, does not have straight lines but it appears to be solid.

Credentials? This guy has "credentials" yet he doesn't understand the fundamentals of premium car design.

I do and I merely dabble.

But it's okay, I'm not going to harp on this further. I'm just disappointed in the styling of the LS500, I think Lexus could have done a lot better.

 

[Carmaker1]

This was the alternate design proposal for the LS500:

Much better than the current choice.

This proposal was the basis of the LF-FC, dated 2013. This was another. Suga led the design process, but the man who did the exterior was Yoshio Kanesugi under Suga's direction. It is like solely blaming Chris Bangle for Adrian Van Hooydonk's work at BMW on the E65 7 and E63 6, but not far off the mark.

This was my most favourite proposal for the 200B programme.



Of course this was the final result in June 2014, photographed at design freeze.


What has bothered me about the 200B programme for XF50, is how they assigned ES engineer Toshio Asahi to it, who was busy wrapping up development of the XV60 ES at the time. Why not the Haruhiko Tanahashi of LFA fame? If he could have just withheld retirement a few years past 2015-16, having ended LFA development in early 2010, he could have taken the lead on Toyota's latest and greatest luxury product as his concluding effort.

There are not enough world firsts on this car, like I was falsely lead to believe by Lexus UK personnel (plus local dealers in London, Coventry, and Birmingham). It just leaves me scratching my head, in comparing the transformation from LS 430 to LS 460. It is much better handling and now has a twin-turbo engine, but some things just feel missing after so many years of waiting and like you're still waiting for more to be said via press release.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

This proposal was the basis of the LF-FC, dated 2013. This was another. Suga led the design process, but the man who did the exterior was Yoshio Kanesugi under Suga's direction. It is like solely blaming Chris Bangle for Adrian Van Hooydonk's work at BMW on the E65 7 and E63 6, but not far off the mark.

This was my most favourite proposal for the 200B programme.
View attachment 2738
View attachment 2739

Of course this was the final result in June 2014, photographed at design freeze.
View attachment 2740 View attachment 2741

What has bothered me about the 200B programme for XF50, is how they assigned ES engineer Toshio Asahi to it, who was busy wrapping up development of the XV60 ES at the time. Why not the Haruhiko Tanahashi of LFA fame? If he could have just withheld retirement a few years past 2015-16, having ended LFA development in early 2010, he could have taken the lead on Toyota's latest and greatest luxury product as his concluding effort.

There are not enough world firsts on this car, like I was falsely lead to believe by Lexus UK personnel (plus local dealers in London, Coventry, and Birmingham). It just leaves me scratching my head, in comparing the transformation from LS 430 to LS 460. It is much better handling and now has a twin-turbo engine, but some things just feel missing after so many years of waiting and like you're still waiting for more to be said via press release.

What I believe you're saying is that the XF50 LS is a bit of a miss, I presume? In my humble opinion, I feel like the biggest mistake that Lexus made is that the rear seat legroom is so small for a luxury flagship. Needs to be at least another 5-6 inches more room to be at that class. They really did revolutionize handling and agility even in base form, have a much more flowing and a more Japanese esque interior. The V6 also adding a lot of low-end grunt.

Can you elaborate on which factors that the XF50 LS is a miss? I am genuinely curious of what Lexus could have done better. My second question is...... can these omissions be added in a mid-cycle refresh? Say sometime around 2021?

 

[Gecko]

There are not enough world firsts on this car, like I was falsely lead to believe by Lexus UK personnel (plus local dealers in London, Coventry, and Birmingham). It just leaves me scratching my head, in comparing the transformation from LS 430 to LS 460. It is much better handling and now has a twin-turbo engine, but some things just feel missing after so many years of waiting and like you're still waiting for more to be said via press release.

I think the LS has been the most notorious victim of what I half-jokingly call the "lost decade" at Lexus. We had all new IS, ES, GS and LS back to back in 2006-2008, and then nothing for 10-12 years: no new engines, no new transmissions, no notable new technology, no real advancement. The pace of progress in this industry is so fast right now that unless OEMs are making regular, continual, tactical updates, they are setting themselves up to need a revolution to be competitive. Lexus fell too far behind to deliver the same type of LS that we are all used to - they had too much "catch up" work to do.

There are many reasons for this, I believe, but most of it can be tied back to leadership changes and missteps. We have heard so many contrasting things from Toyota and Lexus execs over the last few years that it's clear there was no real top-down vision for a long time, IMO. Then I think this concept of flexible, modular architectures and engines came up somewhere around 2011-2012 with the LF-LC, so that set everything back even further as they delayed all redesigns to accommodate TNGA.

LS is not a bad car by any stretch, and there are many things about it that I really like... especially the interior. But it's really foolish to launch a flagship luxury car and then before it's on sale, show a Toyota product with Apple CarPlay. I am still struggling with powertrains as well, with reports of the 500h being choppy and unrefined in real world driving, and the TT V6 delivering lackluster acceleration and performance numbers. On top of that, it's the biggest LS ever and has less rear seat room than a Honda Accord. These are a few things that, IMO, show this car was an 80% effort and could have used a little more development time.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

While that's all true, as I've said before, most LS owners do not drag race. If the TTV6 kicks your butt as good or better off the line than the UR and gets better than 14 MPG doing it (that's my real-world numbers) it'll be fine.

That said, there's a lot riding on the next refresh, and that may be about the time we meet the BEV version.

 

[Gecko]

While that's all true, as I've said before, most LS owners do not drag race. If the TTV6 kicks your butt as good or better off the line than the UR and gets better than 14 MPG doing it (that's my real-world numbers) it'll be fine.

That said, there's a lot riding on the next refresh, and that may be about the time we meet the BEV version.

I agree with you completely, but two other things to consider:

1) There are reports of hesitation and the car being slow to respond to pedal inputs, so, that's no good. In addition, there were a few drivers notes saying the engine seems strained to move 5k lbs of metal at times. To me, the UR V8 always felt quick, lively and powerful - I never drove an LS 460 and was left wanting for power.

2) This LS is so different from previous ones that I wonder how the demographic might change. It's sportier looking and driving, and my assumption is someone looking for a car like that might have higher expectations for performance.

Then again... maybe not?

 

[elph]

I never ever wanted to get a Euro "luxury " car and was thrilled that Lexus was available. My last one was 350 rx 2011 - enjoyed it so much...and then the grille appeared and my love for the brand turned sour. I won't get anything European - they are ugly and boxy and stereotypical but neither will I stoop as low as to get a huge grille gaping in front which were popular back in the mid 20th century. I'll stick with my all purpose steady and dependable innocuous Honda for now in the hopes that Lexus comes to its senses.

 

[CIF]

I think the LS has been the most notorious victim of what I half-jokingly call the "lost decade" at Lexus. We had all new IS, ES, GS and LS back to back in 2006-2008, and then nothing for 10-12 years: no new engines, no new transmissions, no notable new technology, no real advancement. The pace of progress in this industry is so fast right now that unless OEMs are making regular, continual, tactical updates, they are setting themselves up to need a revolution to be competitive. Lexus fell too far behind to deliver the same type of LS that we are all used to - they had too much "catch up" work to do.

There are many reasons for this, I believe, but most of it can be tied back to leadership changes and missteps. We have heard so many contrasting things from Toyota and Lexus execs over the last few years that it's clear there was no real top-down vision for a long time, IMO. Then I think this concept of flexible, modular architectures and engines came up somewhere around 2011-2012 with the LF-LC, so that set everything back even further as they delayed all redesigns to accommodate TNGA.

LS is not a bad car by any stretch, and there are many things about it that I really like... especially the interior. But it's really foolish to launch a flagship luxury car and then before it's on sale, show a Toyota product with Apple CarPlay. I am still struggling with powertrains as well, with reports of the 500h being choppy and unrefined in real world driving, and the TT V6 delivering lackluster acceleration and performance numbers. On top of that, it's the biggest LS ever and has less rear seat room than a Honda Accord. These are a few things that, IMO, show this car was an 80% effort and could have used a little more development time.

Remember when Toyota and Lexus products were revered for having masterful packaging? Seems like those days are going away into the past. It's really hard to mentally wrap your head around the fact that the 5LS rear seat room is fairly tight for a sedan of such large size.

 

[Mr. Burns]

Remember when Toyota and Lexus products were revered for having masterful packaging? Seems like those days are going away into the past. It's really hard to mentally wrap your head around the fact that the 5LS rear seat room is fairly tight for a sedan of such large size.

It partly comes back to poor styling and stylists.

Look at that unnecessary front overhang adding to the length of the car:

Compared to previous:

Carmaker can correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that excessive front overhangs on new Lexuses are deliberate for the styling and serve no engineering function.

If this is true, it again speaks to a lack of understanding on the stylists part, because you never want excessive front overhang especially in a luxury car. Wheels should always be pushed as far to the corners as possible.

This is even worse in the RX.

Why?! This was not the case with the previous model. This is not the case with other FWD competitors like the Audi Q5.

They added 1.9 inches to the wheelbase over the previous model (passenger room), and 4.7 inches to the length.

When you completely disregard the importance of good proportions in car design, you should not be designing luxury cars.

And directional wheels? Seriously? On a premium product?

Throw these fools out and put in proper stylists. Hire from outside of Japan if you have to. This is not acceptable.

 

[Gecko]

Carmaker can correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that excessive front overhangs on new Lexuses are deliberate for the styling and serve no engineering function.

If this is true, it again speaks to a lack of understanding on the stylists part, because you never want excessive front overhang especially in a luxury car. Wheels should always be pushed as far to the corners as possible.

I think I recall what you're referring to... it was something saying that to create the swept back/down waterfall effect of the spindle, it required more space up front for the design. Thus, these absurd front overhangs. The RX is really the worst offender though. LS doesn't bother me much, to be honest.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

The stock RX definitely looks unbalanced. The RX L with the longer rear actually makes the design snap into place.

Regarding the UR's power, I never had a problem with it, but seemingly all I saw on here and elsewhere for years before the LS500 was revealed was how the LS was tragically behind the Germans on power. That's true numerically, but for US/Canada use I struggle to see why you'd need significantly more than what the UR does. I semi-regularly go near-triple-digits on I-95 (I'm sure @mmcartalk knows how people are on that road in the mid-Atlantic) and the car doesn't even break a sweat.

That all said, I'd love a bit more torque on the low-end, which the TTV6 supposedly offers. Will find out when they're available for test drives.

 

[CIF]

It partly comes back to poor styling and stylists.

Look at that unnecessary front overhang adding to the length of the car:

Compared to previous:

Carmaker can correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that excessive front overhangs on new Lexuses are deliberate for the styling and serve no engineering function.

If this is true, it again speaks to a lack of understanding on the stylists part, because you never want excessive front overhang especially in a luxury car. Wheels should always be pushed as far to the corners as possible.

This is even worse in the RX.

Why?! This was not the case with the previous model. This is not the case with other FWD competitors like the Audi Q5.

They added 1.9 inches to the wheelbase over the previous model (passenger room), and 4.7 inches to the length.

When you completely disregard the importance of good proportions in car design, you should not be designing luxury cars.

And directional wheels? Seriously? On a premium product?

Throw these fools out and put in proper stylists. Hire from outside of Japan if you have to. This is not acceptable.

Yes indeed that is the case for Lexus now, like it or not. The overhangs have no clear engineering purpose; they are for form and design. Masterful packaging is no longer a top priority for Lexus. Lexus is going more into the direction of form over function. It is what it is IMO. I'll stick to mostly Toyota models then in this case, as some of the reasons why I liked certain Lexus models in the first place are slowly disappearing.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

For me, the overhangs combined with the diagonal character line down the sides gives the cars a sense of forward motion even when they aren't moving. Sort of like the famous hidden arrow in the FedEx logo.

 

[CIF]

For me, the overhangs combined with the diagonal character line down the sides gives the cars a sense of forward motion even when they aren't moving. Sort of like the famous hidden arrow in the FedEx logo.

I have no problems with the character lines, I think they work pretty well. The problem with the larger overhangs, aside from the subjective discussion of styling, is an objective one. It means less efficient packaging of the vehicle and slightly more difficulty driving and parking in tight city streets. Now maybe that's not a big deal anymore for Lexus given that it wants to be a more aspirational brand and not so practical anymore. Fine I mean that's debatable. Now the other problem with the larger overhangs is that they are detrimental to performance. Lexus is now much more serious about handling and overall vehicle performance and dynamics than they were in the past. However larger overhangs detract from that because they are detrimental to the moment of inertia of the vehicle.