hah... i ff through it 2 hrs ago, but didnt have time to play it all!
- Thread starter krew
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hah... i ff through it 2 hrs ago, but didnt have time to play it all!
CRSKTN
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Such a silence about the LF-1, it disappeared as the production ready Toyota S-FR Concept. Hopefully the LF-1 is not back as the next RX with FWD layout and 2GR engine. RWD flagship CUV is the last salvation left for Lexus. Infiniti killed their FX/QX70, and died altogether.
I assume leaks exist, but Toyota is revamping their PR department into overdrive to suppress any sort of situation. The IS leak was timed to perfectly tho....
If the LC F gets canceled, how can we be sure about this one not being cancelled? The article @Gecko posted about Cadillac, they cancelled the Omega platform for the XT6.
And if according to what @ssun30 about TMC viewing the TNGA-L as mistake, why would they continue with the LF-1 based on this platform? Isn't it more profitable to one up the next RX as they did with the ES to replace the GS? Except the first gen. RX, every other was already coupe-ish.
The LX/GX are niche vehicles, those that needed more than 5 seats, can now choose the RX L. LX/GX are proper off-roaders, so I imagine no crossshoping between these and German CUVs, rather between American Trucks/SUVs.
But for a RWD LF-1, who will be the target buyer? Only the buyers of RWD IS/GS/LS, low selling models. Why would the usual RX buyer upgrade to an LF-1 if ther is no significant difference, except RWD and V8, for which that buyer might not care, just as those did not care about the GS compared to the ES?
With best sellers all being FWD based (UX, NX, RX), what does RWD based layout of the LF-1 bring to the portfolio? Other than TTV8 performance, which might not be crossshopped by German CUV buyers?
If on here many believe Genesis GV60 and GV70 are not enough to establish the brand, why would the LF-1 be enough? And is it really missing? BMW X8 M is coming with +750 PS hybrid. What is the LF-1 with its 'underpowered' 650 PS TTV8 going to do?
Has Lexus cancelled the LF-1, just as the LC F?
And if according to what @ssun30 about TMC viewing the TNGA-L as mistake, why would they continue with the LF-1 based on this platform? Isn't it more profitable to one up the next RX as they did with the ES to replace the GS? Except the first gen. RX, every other was already coupe-ish.
The LX/GX are niche vehicles, those that needed more than 5 seats, can now choose the RX L. LX/GX are proper off-roaders, so I imagine no crossshoping between these and German CUVs, rather between American Trucks/SUVs.
But for a RWD LF-1, who will be the target buyer? Only the buyers of RWD IS/GS/LS, low selling models. Why would the usual RX buyer upgrade to an LF-1 if ther is no significant difference, except RWD and V8, for which that buyer might not care, just as those did not care about the GS compared to the ES?
With best sellers all being FWD based (UX, NX, RX), what does RWD based layout of the LF-1 bring to the portfolio? Other than TTV8 performance, which might not be crossshopped by German CUV buyers?
If on here many believe Genesis GV60 and GV70 are not enough to establish the brand, why would the LF-1 be enough? And is it really missing? BMW X8 M is coming with +750 PS hybrid. What is the LF-1 with its 'underpowered' 650 PS TTV8 going to do?
Has Lexus cancelled the LF-1, just as the LC F?
CRSKTN
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LF1 would expand market. Would be aiming to take away from other ultra lux SUVs. Nobody shopping an RX is buying a loaded LF1, generally.
James
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I mean if they are only going to make cars for what their current audience has they are going to go out of business rt? Isn’t the idea to bring new customers in and excite current owners to one day own a model that is above them? Lexus can dominate the RX and ES segment (prolly NX as well) but don’t they want to have consumers that stay for life and go through all the stages?
Gecko
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Very good points, and ones that I have been considering as well. @ssun30 and I agree on Lexus' likely attitude towards GA-N and GA-L, but I could also be wrong. Losing LC F, cold feet because of COVID-19 and slow selling LC and LS make for a very tough business case for anything else on that platform. I think they will launch the LF-1 on GA-L but it will likely be very expensive because it's hopefully too far along to dump, forcing Lexus' hand. The other, but less likely, option is that they cancel it and say it was a design and engineering exercise for next gen Lexus CUVs. If it's true that the next gen NX looks like a mini LF-1, they could get away with that.
The LF-1/RX discussion reminds me of something else we used to hear: "GS is more premium and sportier, so those shoppers are very different from ES buyers. Those people are willing to pay the premium."
Reality: both cars were the same size with similar features and similar engine options, but one of them cost $10-15k less. We know how that ended up. Unfortunately, we know that the ES is even eating into some LS sales as well.
In an expanding CUV market vs a contracting passenger car market, I can see a much easier case for the LF-1, and we've already seen what Lexus is thinking in terms of design and execution via the 2018 LF-1 Limitless concept. What we haven't seen are a next generation RX and NX, and that could change some things. Looking at the exterior of the new IS, we can see how much Lexus design is maturing and how dang good it looks. Thinking about IS-ized midsize and compact CUVs is pretty appealing, and we know Lexus is going to be bringing things like DTV AWD, hybrids, plugins, and hopefully new powertrains, something like this:
NX: on TNGA-K, 2.0T, 2.5T ~300hp, 350h with 245hp, 450h+ with 302hp plugin. Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD. Rumors are starting to say it looks like a "Little LF-1."
RX: also on TNGA-K, Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD, otherwise, we don't know much. We can assume 350h, maybe 450h+, and either another renewal for the GR V6 and/or the 2.5T. I think it is safe to say at this point that we should expect some sort of powertrain option with 330-350hp... this is Lexus' #1 model and a subset of owners are looking for something more powerful. Even if it's a new hybrid 450h, they need it. There's also the question of two rows vs. three, or both again.
What I'm getting at here is that if the next gen NX is elevated - which it seems to be based on trademarks - and they similarly elevate the RX, imagine something like a 350hp, two row 5th gen RX with DTV AWD, full digital dash, next gen luxury features, and the next gen L-Finesse styling we know it will have. That's probably going to be a $65-70k vehicle, and probably also pretty appealing. If that costs $65k and the LF-1 starts at $85k, LF-1 will have some stiff in-house competition.
I know there are some who can't wait to tell me that the LF-1 is going to be lower, wider, better looking, sportier, and have an optional V8 - and all of that is probably going to be true - but I think the Lexus shopper tends to be a practical one who will likely look at an RX as well and say, "Is this other one worth $15k+ more?" Maybe the LF-1 will be so dramatic that it will pull a totally different shopper who isn't so practical or conservative.
I know this post is already long, so thanks for reading this far, but what I noted above assumes that we see great "level up" execution for the next gen RX. It might be more realistic to expect Lexus to simply take the Highlander mechanicals, restyle the exterior, add wood and leather, keep the same GR V6 and "350h" hybrid and offer two and three row versions. In this situation, I think the case for the LF-1 is very obvious - its going to be everything Lexus didn't do with the RX. But... somehow, I still have higher hopes for Lexus than that.
I have checked on Wiki, and every Lexus LF concept that previewed a production model, the production model was released/revealed within 2 years after the preview concept. There is one exception though: the LC, of which the production model was released 5 years later (how time passes!!!). Reason said was this car was in concept stage only and only went into development stage after positive feedback, thus the timegap from concept to production. The LF-1 concept being shown in 2018, the production model should show up in 2020 (but due to covid, not happening, no timeframe left), latest 2021. This thread's rumors claims it is delayed till 2022. That will make it 4 years, 1 less than the LC.
But with recent rumors about the cancellation of the LC F, which are as credible as those of the facelifted IS, I am afraid LF1 cancellation is a high possibility, depending on how far they were in development. The concept however did look like the production car itself dressed up with concept style, not like LS, NX, UX, IS/RC concepts previously. That however can't be an indication, the Toyota S-FR concept also was what a production car would be like, but finally never came, and was still never officially cancelled, because it also was never officially announced for production, at least I don't recall any statements.
Was the LF-1 officially announced for production? If not, I am afraid this car will never come.
And who knows, maybe the IS500 with 2UR was cancelled too, but after development (reason for GS front-end), thus no trademarks, because Lexus will simply stop the 2UR, no more RC F, no more LC 500 with 2UR (well there is the Toyota Century with 2UR hybrid). The LC (and LS) will simply get TTV8 instead of 2UR, maybe the LC will get the TTV6 to lower the price and fill the RC(F) gap, but no fullblown F version for LC (and LS).
Now I sadly prefer to expect the worst, and be pleasantly surprised, than to hope and be badly disappointed.
But with recent rumors about the cancellation of the LC F, which are as credible as those of the facelifted IS, I am afraid LF1 cancellation is a high possibility, depending on how far they were in development. The concept however did look like the production car itself dressed up with concept style, not like LS, NX, UX, IS/RC concepts previously. That however can't be an indication, the Toyota S-FR concept also was what a production car would be like, but finally never came, and was still never officially cancelled, because it also was never officially announced for production, at least I don't recall any statements.
Was the LF-1 officially announced for production? If not, I am afraid this car will never come.
And who knows, maybe the IS500 with 2UR was cancelled too, but after development (reason for GS front-end), thus no trademarks, because Lexus will simply stop the 2UR, no more RC F, no more LC 500 with 2UR (well there is the Toyota Century with 2UR hybrid). The LC (and LS) will simply get TTV8 instead of 2UR, maybe the LC will get the TTV6 to lower the price and fill the RC(F) gap, but no fullblown F version for LC (and LS).
Now I sadly prefer to expect the worst, and be pleasantly surprised, than to hope and be badly disappointed.
If TTV8 is cancelled, LF1 come with TTV6 only. What engine will power the hybrid? TTV6 Hybrid from Sequoia/Tundra/Landcruiser?
With LS and LC barely selling, Crown selling only in JDM, MIrai 2 only a hyrdogen sepcial, how profitable is TNGA-L/N for only one RWD model, not related to BOF RWD models?
With LS and LC barely selling, Crown selling only in JDM, MIrai 2 only a hyrdogen sepcial, how profitable is TNGA-L/N for only one RWD model, not related to BOF RWD models?
F1 Silver Arrows
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TTV8 is not cancelled.
Gecko
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Do you have an updated source after recent rumors?
James
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Waiting on response is killing me lol can’t they just like come out with already. How long do you need to test an engine? 10 plus years come Lexus just come out with it already!
Gecko
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F1 Silver Arrows
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I'm pretty sure Lexus themselves said that the TTV8 is going to continue. It's going to be in their race cars and will be in other Lexus models. We would have seen it this month if it wasn't for the stupid COVID-19 pandemic. 🤬🤬
And again, the LC F is put on hold (or temporarily shelved). We don't know if it's 100% cancelled yet.
James
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Yeah I don't want to minimize what COVID is doing to the world cause yes new car models and V8 engines aren't important at all in the grand scheme of things but as we try to continue with life as best we can Lexus needs to come out of this quickly. Every new model a competitor comes out with just makes Lexus's product line so much worse. From technology to engines to interior design on some of these "older" models ie GX and LX we need new models and quickly. This V8 is definately needed in multiple models and really for the brand's respect they need it. Gone are the days where they are just so much more reliable than everyone else. You need to have a top end model line. These V6 just don't cut it as top model engine. V8's might not be around forever but for the next decade they will be.
Lastly what's worse; spending 13 years and not coming out with the engine; or selling only a few of the V8's? They've already spent time, money, and resources to this. Might as well make some of us Lexus fans and maybe even some critics happy rt?