Lexus LF-1 Limitless Concept Megathread [LF Coming in 2023?]

[ssun30]

It's not that complicated. Land Cruiser is a good enough brand name alone. It's not like there is a "FCA Jeep", just Jeep. I'm sure those extremely creative people in Japan can come up with good suffix for each model. Or they can always use a numerical system like "Land Cruiser FJ-1".

 

[maiaramdan]

@Levi

The Land Cruiser name is really so powerful everywhere around the earth from Australia to South America , from Russia to South Africa, and honestly it makes me sad to see this name became a shadow to useless letters numerical name.

The name weights a lot regardless the reason, but I can answer you that the name got its power from the history, in the time Toyota was still starting and contains a lot of issues"remember what happened to the crown first time Toyota entered the states".

So Toyota was not created as a reliability guru, but on the other hand Land Cruiser was created from day1 as un-destructive off-road vehicle, it's a heritage been built from early 50th of the previous century

Regarding to the case study we have Land Rover, it's all SUV brand and they are doing amazing, by the way the R&D for the next Toyota BOF will only have main chassis derivative from the TNGA, so it will take less R&D cost to make a lot of variants with different sizes.

Jeep , Land Rover & GMC will be here for some more time than brands that have no CUVs or SUVs

 

[Levi]

The Land Cruiser name is really so powerful everywhere around the earth from Australia to South America , from Russia to South Africa, and honestly it makes me sad to see this name became a shadow to useless letters numerical name.

Except in Western Europe, where only a few understand what a Land Cruiser is. There are so few of them, that other than the Hilux (pickup), I think outsold by the Ford Ranger, Nissan Navara and VW Amarok, No person really cares about Land Cruiser. If to talk off-road, Land Rover/Range Rover, Jeep or G Wagon are the only 4x4 that come to their mind.

 

[maiaramdan]

Toyota already a minor player in Western Europe

But in the other hand Aus/ Mid East buying by tons from LCs , same goes with Russia and most post soviet countries,

Africa and Ocenia especially Aus depending a lot on it

NA market most of them knows well what Land Cruiser is

Honestly to get out of this dilemma, even if Land Cruiser not having the heritage they have and Toyota made a SUV brand to go with Land Rover and Jeep they will have a winner card because of Toyota brand reliability recognition, same as the first years in Lexus life

 

[mikeavelli]

Some spy pics of the Q8, what the LF-1 would be up against...

 

[maiaramdan]

It's not only Q8
It will be also X6, GLE coupe, Urus, AMG SUV & mainly Levante

Lexus with it's "L" is going head to head with Maserati
The LS can be easily rebranded as Quattroporte and the Levante will be do much the upcoming production of the LF-1, which I still believe they should name it GX

 

[mikeavelli]

It's not only Q8
It will be also X6, GLE coupe, Urus, AMG SUV & mainly Levante

Lexus with it's "L" is going head to head with Maserati
The LS can be easily rebranded as Quattroporte and the Levante will be do much the upcoming production of the LF-1, which I still believe they should name it GX

Th LF-1 I assume will be positioned higher since its a flagship SUV based off the LS/LC. The GLE/X6 are not flagship SUV's, the GLS holds that distinction. The Q8 is based off the Q7 and likely will be positioned higher than the X6/GLE. I know a bit confusing since they are all 4 door coupe SUV's at this point.

This is not going head to head with the Levante, that vehicle also is mid size and more Ghilbi than Quattroporte.

The Quattroporte is kind of in its own realm with pricing. It hasn't sold well this generation or gotten reviewed much.

That said I assume they will all be somewhat cross shopped especially when the prices start mixing.

 

[maiaramdan]

@mikeavelli

On the Maserati part I mean the design language of the LS/LF-1 is somehow Italian as Quattroporte/Levante

Regarding the size Levante nearly 5M same current LX length so it's full-size

Regarding the GLE coupe and X6 I mean design wize , as yes I agree with you they can't be flagships

Returning to our main topic
It will be better if the LF-1 appeared as next generation GX going after Q8 & Urus with the next generation LX also ditch the BOF for sonsometh more square and luxurious to go for the X7, GLS, Cullinan, Bentayga & Vogue

 

[Levi]

On the Maserati part I mean the design language of the LS/LF-1 is somehow Italian as Quattroporte/Levante

Regarding the size Levante nearly 5M same current LX length so it's full-size

Regarding the GLE coupe and X6 I mean design wize , as yes I agree with you they can't be flagships

Returning to our main topic
It will be better if the LF-1 appeared as next generation GX going after Q8 & Urus with the next generation LX also ditch the BOF for sonsometh more square and luxurious to go for the X7, GLS, Cullinan, Bentayga & Vogue

The new Maseratis look more Korean/Chinese than Italian.

 

[maiaramdan]

Beauty in the eye of the beholder
All in all I really like the current Levante and Quattroporte

Also I really hope a uniframe in both next generation LX & GX one for supreme Luxury and the other for the ultimate Sport

 

[Levi]

ultimate Sport

wrong car IMO

 

[maiaramdan]

My view as Toyota don't have Bentley nor Lamborghini brands so it can have both Bentayga & Urus in the lineup and they will never intersected even with same price range as everyone of them deal with different types of customers

 

[ssun30]

I just came back from a business trip to Shenzhen, where they have a very strong luxury car culture. It's painful to see that the LF-1 takes another three years to make. Like everywhere else, there is an unstoppable move to crossovers in the full-size luxury market. While there is still a significant of S-class and even S-class Maybach sales, non-MB sedans like the LS, 7 Series LWB, A8L, and other minor players are already on their way out. GLS, X5s, and Range Rovers fill the roads, but the LX is close to non-existent because the fuel economy is just way too punishing (it's not about gas price, but very frequent refueling that cause a lot of inconvenience).

The J200 LX has a comfortable niche of its own. It is still a very profitable program. But its replacement is way past-due. It should be on a 9-year model cycle and be replaced in 2016. When they are planning on such a vehicle, global economy was already recovering so they should expect a boom in the high value market during the 2015-2020 timeframe. That's how you run a luxury company, you plan your products after economy start recovering so they are ready when the boom comes; if you wait until the economy has already recovered, you risk launching the vehicle into another recession. Mercedes knows this by heart; many of their recent strong products are launched just at the right time to ride the wave.

How Lexus failed to make a business case for a unibody full-size crossover is completely beyond me. They should know very well the BOF GX and LX will keep being niche products, and they know there is clearly a hole above the RX.

We are looking at one of the biggest business failures in their entire history, maybe even more damaging than the RC flop. Even at a very modest estimate of 30k units per year world wide, they are losing 2 billion dollars a year (that's almost 10% of their total revenue) in potential sales from 2016 to 2020 for a total of 10 billion. And it's not just about sales alone, the even more damaging part is conceding market share to other players. When the LF-1 hits in 2020, the market will be saturated by a dozen products instead of three if they did it in 2016.

If I were Lexus I would even go so far as delaying the ES for six months to have the LX successor ready before 2018. LC in 2016, LS in 2017, LX in 2018, just imagine that. Lexus would have a strong flagship trinity on the same level as or even surpassing Mercedes. But alas they are still in the LX succession crisis that they will forever regret.

 

[maiaramdan]

@ssun30
100% with you brother
Something wrong at Lexus management level, they keep taking a very stupid decisions lately

We will see what will happen

 

[Levi]

It is incomprehensible how Toyota went from CUV/SUV creator and leader to lagger. Maybe their hybrid program hindered that, but now others have caught up to some extent, and also in reliability, others are not that far behind anymore, if at all. HFCEV and autonomous driving might have been cash eaters. They started first and alone, compared to consortium and start-ups today.

Except for the reliability/durability, I consider the Land Cruiser to have been beaten by the 1st gen Cayenne/Touareg and Range Rover. Now it is a different story, because the first are more CUVs than SUVs, but that is what the new Land Cruiser and LX should have been.

One question that I have not seen answered/have no answer for is if what look does a luxury CUV/SUV need to have that a customer should be interested in? Should it look like an off-road capable car or not? If yes, the LF-1 does not look that way.

Another question is how valuable is a separate cargo compartment for a luxury comfortable car? I doubt any luxury SUV/CUV transports a washing machine, land mower or anything of the kind. Thus, folding rear seats are not a necessity, which permits a isolating 'wall' behind rear seats and cargo compartment.

 

[mikeavelli]

Another question is how valuable is a separate cargo compartment for a luxury comfortable car? I doubt any luxury SUV/CUV transports a washing machine, land mower or anything of the kind. Thus, folding rear seats are not a necessity, which permits a isolating 'wall' behind rear seats and cargo compartment.

That is actually an interesting point as the Tesla Model X has hardly any cubby space, the cargo space is okay at best and people just love the vehicle.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

That is actually an interesting point as the Tesla Model X has hardly any cubby space, the cargo space is okay at best and people just love the vehicle.

The question is if they actually don't care about cargo space or if they're just Tesla-mesmerized. People put up with a lot of things in those cars that they wouldn't anywhere else (for instance, using a jack on the Model X to change a tire will bend the body and make the fancy doors stop working; you have to have a lift).

 

[Levi]

The question is if they actually don't care about cargo space or if they're just Tesla-mesmerized. People put up with a lot of things in those cars that they wouldn't anywhere else (for instance, using a jack on the Model X to change a tire will bend the body and make the fancy doors stop working; you have to have a lift).

Really?

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Huh. I'll tell my friend who had his warranty cancelled that he did it wrong Or at least without the magic orange piece to distribute the load.

 

[mikeavelli]

The question is if they actually don't care about cargo space or if they're just Tesla-mesmerized. People put up with a lot of things in those cars that they wouldn't anywhere else

Yeah the excuses I see given on things is pretty hilarious...but Tesla has some magic!