Discussion in 'Lexus Lounge' started by krew, Dec 5, 2017.
2019 Toyota Avalon, Lexus LF-1 Limitless concept to be revealed at NAIAS
So the ES will missed NAIAS
For me, the most significant bit of the video that supra93 posted above comes at the 6:55 mark, when Toyota North America's Executive Vice President of Sales (and Toyota USA President of Sales) Bob Carter says:
There have been rumblings that the production version of LF-1 might replace LX, but Mr. Carter's words suggest that there's room at Lexus' flagship level for both a traditional body-on-frame SUV and a car-based crossover.
So we will have 4 Ls in the near future
You raise an interesting conundrum. It makes sense that all flagship Lexus models start with "L", doesn't it? Yet, as it currently stands, Lexus naming protocols use an "X" as a second letter for both body-on-frame SUVs and car-derived crossovers. At this point, my prediction is that the production LF-1 Limitless will break with the L? pattern and be badged with the still-live trademark (last time I looked) TX prefix, and call it a "Touring Crossover".
Maybe it be called LTX : Luxury Touring Crossover or if Lexus decides to keep the LX name, but changes it to a CUV platform it should be called the LX 500h and the LX 500 or the LX 500t ( twin turbo 5 liter V8).
No more 't' for turbo engines. Could also just be called LA (Luxury All-Purpose Vehicle), which it basically is: style of LC, luxury of LS, practicality of LX.
hahahaha. So I will just drive to LA in my LA
I like that!
Other possibilities along those lines are LM (Luxury Multipurpose) and LT (Luxury Touring).
I like the LT, LM, and the LA but, I think Lexus should discontinue the GX and the LX and use the RX L as their flagship SUV by extending the RX wheel base and adding the 5 liter V8.
The GX and LX are niche products compared to all cars sold, but are not niche products in Toyota's line-up and are well sold in some regions (Middle-East, Central and Eastern Europe and Pacific). I do believe these product could be merged though and available in different setups, should be cheaper (more profitable) and allow a better product. Sometimes market share is better than profit. I understand production is based regionally and suppliers are as local as possible, work-force culture and skills are different, but Toyota still has a lot of redundancy in their BOF range: FJ Cruiser, Cruiser 70, Cruiser 200/LX, Prado 150/GX, Hilux and Fortuner, Tacoma and 4Runner, Tundra and Sequoia, only I4 diesel, V8 diesel, V6 petrol and V8 petrol.
just wanted to add that LX has been easily outselling LS for quite few years worldwide. So these days, it would be LS thats endangered species and not LX.
if anything, they will add more "redundancy"... I am not sure of exact numbers, but their BOF range likely sells over 1M worldwide these days, and it is major profit driver for the company, likely the biggest one for Toyota brand.
So they are not going anywhere and range is likley expanding. New Innova is also selling well, as are some other vehicles based on IMV platform.
I think the issue with redundancy is that Toyota cannot produce one BOF platform for all markets. The 'less fancy' BOF vehicles are designed to be as simple as possible; they are just a tough frame with a reliable diesel. These vehicles cannot be updated to NA-spec because there is a huge supply of spare parts in those less-developed nations that makes these vehicles extremely cheap to maintain. To give you an idea: even a remote village in the middle of nowhere in Tibet has a spare parts depot for the Prado 150. This is why the Prado (and its chinese rip-offs), despite looking like a modern luxury family hauler, is used to traverse the toughest terrain in Tibet for military and tourists alike. You can't do that with a Rubicon/Raptor because if the truck broke down it's dead for good.
On the other hand, NA always demand 'fancier' trucks, with more tech, gimmick, power, and whatnot at the cost of toughness and TCO. Americans talk about their trucks being tough all the time, not realizing there are vast area in the world where trucks are subject to much tougher conditions (which is why the Hilux and LC70 thrive). You can't ask a fisherman in Bangladesh or a shoemaker in Ghana to haul their stuff with a F-150; it is simply too expensive for them. This is why Tacoma/4Runner/Tundra/Sequoia became NA-only. Despite their reputation, I doubt they can be as indestructible as the good old Hilux and LC70 because they have too much unnecessary stuff to appeal to american buyers.
Let's take the BOF lineup piece by piece and you will see that there's little to no redundancy
Not that all the BOF will be on only 1 wheelbase based on the SA-L architecture but for BOF
1- Hilux / Innova / Fortuner
Pickup / Minivan / SUV
Midsize Off-road sport Capabilities
2- Tacoma / 4 Runner / Prado / GX
Pickup / SUV
Midsize Off-road luxurious Capabilities
* The only redundant here is the Prado with the GX , there's even a Prado trim named Prado GX "not the most lux. Prado thought"
= The solution is to turn the GX in Lexus Lineup to a sport rear wheel drive CUV , which will give the Prado more space for the upper lux. trim
Pickup / SUV
Its very important and essential and it's to Toyota BOF lineup as G to Benz lineup, it's sturdy, rugged and have a lot of heritage by it's own
4- LC200 / LX
This is the second redundancy point where they are technically the same and honestly the Land cruiser naming decreases in order to give the LX the space so it will be more logic to turn the LX also to ultra lux. rwd CUV aka Bentley/Range Rover competitor and leave the Land cruiser naming to shine and grew again maybe returning the Cygnus naming and make the Land Cruiser naming as a new brand just for BOF vehicles
5- Tundra / Seqouia
Pickup / SUV
Last but not least the American couple that Toyota shouldn't leave them ever as long as there respective categories still exists
These distinctions are very clear, yet I am not certain it is this "choice" that makes Toyota/Lexus BOF SUVs sell, but rather the general Toyota/Lexus proven image of durability/reliability. When you look at the models, there is no regional redundancy, because those 'redundant' products are simply not available (with the exception of Land Cruiser/LX everywhere except Western Europe, where they are no more for sale and one never was as far as I know). In Australia you can't get anything the NA gets, in NA you don't get those models produced in Thailand (Hilux, Fortuner, Innova) and those for the Australian market etc. In Western Europe there is nothing else except the Hilux and Prado, Lexus has only CUVs. When you look at Toyota's competitors, they are mostly the same world wide, with for example the Ford Ranger now coming to NA. The Ford Ranger competes against two Toyota's, the Hilux in some markets and the Tacoma in other markets. Both these cars could be the same ones, even if produced in different regions, and also have different names, something that is not unusual at Toyota. There is no issue with the models 3-5 that you listed, but more with 1-2, where one truck and one SUV, with its van version, would be enough world wide. I do not believe the NA versions (Tacoma/4Runner) are significantly less durable than versions (Hilux/Fortuner), or that it would cost too much to make the Hilux/Fortuner NA viable. Toyota's BOF lineup is from a time the market was not SUV/CUV crazy, now it also has to adapt. The main issue seems to come for the development and life-cycle. the BOF car Sequoia and Land Cruiser are really very old. But Toyota is not as small as Mitsubishi with their old, yet very well built and still competitive Pajero.
The Lexus LF-1 is the first step in the right direction (for Lexus), not only for NA, but specially for Europe and Asia. Regarding Toyota's last CUV/SUV concepts, 3 of them, they better be functional. Unfortunately the functionality gets lost from concept to production.
One thing that is sure, is that Toyota will remain a BOF vehicle manufacturer, because until there is a breakthrough in sustainable energy, that is abundant, can be easily transported and accessed from the most remote places, until autonomous cars can drive in the most remote and unpredictable places, BOF vehicles are here to stay, few compared to the whole consumer market, but quite enough to make a profit, and TMC better be a leader in this domain. 'Green' will no more be a selling point, when every car will be 'green'.
Of course it is a choice they made. IMV based products are cheaper specifically for where price matters. Fortuner is certainly not higher quality by any means than 4Runner.
Tacoma is also a lot bigger than Hilux, it is 5.3m vs 5.7m... Tacoma would be way too big for most places where Hilux sells well.
This is why Toyota is most profitable manufacturer in the world - they are big enough to sell different versions of similar type of vehicle to cater to the specific market and thus achieve much better market share than competition.
Honestly for me
I hope Lexus sticks as all premium makers with the rwd based SUV in the top tier segments
LX to be Range Rover Vogue, X7, Bentayga, GL, G, Next Rolls Royce SUV competitor
GX to be Range Rover Sport, X6, Urus, Q8 SUV competitor
They don't need any new thing
Wheelbase / Chassis from the (LS/LC) same as Engines, Transmissions & Tech
This is the single worst thing I've read on the internet in 2017.