Lexus has lost the plot - the new LS Concept.

[LexusGuy]

Just got back from Spain, spotted a Lexus minivan there - I was like, man what I missed… since when do they sell that? Hope they will not market it as an LS in the US.

 

[mediumhot]

2 completely different markets. Your comparision is quite Stupid.

LS500 an LS Concept minivan are TWO completely different markets.

 

[ssun30]

Are we sure China is Lexus' most lucrative market?

I am not so sure... they are breaking sales records in North America with a lineup 90% based on Toyota crossovers and SUVs that print cash with incredible margins. Overall sales volume is also much greater than China. In a world with no LS, LC, GS, or RC, everything Lexus is selling is Toyota-based with incredibly high margins, and they're selling a ton of them.

My .02: I think Toyota has already turned their eye towards the Chinese market as their priority and other global markets will simply have to pay the price, but I am not sure that is really the right strategy -- or at least could have done much better with better localization for key models.

The Chinese market is not lucrative, but much more polarized than other markets. They need those very high margin products to sustain the price war at the lower end, a business model both foreign JV and local brands are using. The failure of Acura/Infiniti/Lincoln is why Honda/Nissan/Ford are on the brink of quitting the market altogether. $30k ES on discounts are not sustainable, but they still need to somehow maintain a presence. What have been enabling them are extremely high margin products like the LM and LX, which sell for way higher prices than rest of the world.

Chinese brands are also eating away their market share in other markets like SEA. The ultra luxury minivan segment is something they cannot lose, but the Alphard platform is no longer sufficient due to limited size.

In fact, it's a very big mistake for Mercedes to introduce the VLS so late. V-class converted VIP transport have been popular in Asia even a decade ago. The demand for a "Maybach Minivan" has been there for a long time and Lexus is the only brand to take advantage of that.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

We already know exactly what people want in a Lexus flagship vehicle:

... but Akio killed it because it wasn't an easy copy/paste on a RAV4 platform with a 20 year old V6.

It was bad timing. COVID hit. That killed of projects for a lot of brands.

I think Lexus L Flagship line should have several vehicles:

1. LFR: Based on the sport concept unveiled at the Quail which WILL BE COMING. I think it should also come with a hybrid 6 or 8 cylinder engine in addition to the EV powertrain, and ideally around 1000 horsepower. I would also like it to race in GT3, maybe alongside the GR GT in something similar to the Lamborghini-Audi R8-Huracan situation that has been happening of the last 10 years.
2. LX/LXL: Make it a proper Range Rover, GLS, and Escalade Rival, rather than a defender rival. It should be gunning towards luxury. V6, possibly EV in the future aswell. This doesnt mean it has to lose that much offroad prowess, but it shouldnt be the main priority. The GX has gotten big enough to handle that domain.
3. LFX: Basically the LF1-Limitless concept with the same powertrains as the LFR, designed to compete against the Audi Q8, Porsche Cayenne, Range Rover Sport etc. V6 and maybe V8 hybrids, possibly EV in the future aswell.
4. LM/LMV: The upcoming van/minivan concept (though ideally with a better looking design). EV, maybe Hybrid?
5. LS: Not a traditional sedan, but something similar, kind of like the Audi Grand sphere concept. It could serve as something more executive idk.

Lexus L should be standing for the best of the best that Lexus has to offer. Century will be much higher, and then Gazoo Racing will be made as a pure performance brand. Lexus can offer similar levels of performance but be more upscale. This allows Lexus F to survive alongside Toyota GR Products. I believe I had stated earlier that it may make sense to just consolidate everything into Gazoo Racing, however I have since changed my mind on this. F still has a place amongst Lexus Performance models, and in motorsport. I think the LFR could be the concept that Lexus released at the quail, and that GR GT thing could be the hardcore Gazoo Racing version, so there is hope!

As for motorsport I would love to see Lexus maybe join Formula E (fits the brand quite well, take a potential LFR GT3 to various championships as a cousin to the GR GT, and also as Toyota will be running hydrogen in the top class at WEC (Hypercar Class), maybe Lexus could take over the hybrid Hypercar program). Just some food for thought....

 

[Gecko]

It was bad timing. COVID hit. That killed of projects for a lot of brands.

While you're right about the COVID impacts, I don't think that is the excuse here. The depth and breadth of Toyota's lineup has exploded over the last 7 years while Lexus has been stagnant and lost key models. The LF-1 would have been a platform/parts sharing exercise with the LS and LC, so most of what was needed to make it happen already existed, but Toyota chose to consolidate their resources and save their money by trying to upcycle FWD platforms like GA-K.

Toyota's own Century SUV - the crown jewel of the entire portfolio - is built on a FWD chassis with a 20 year old V6. If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Toyota right now, I'm not sure how else I can help. They didn't even put it on their most premium unibody platform - GA-L - or put their latest and greatest engine in it, the V35A-FTS.

Toyota's leadership in Japan lives in a vacuum where all of the roads have a 35mph speed limit and they all think that because they engineered it, it's the best product in its class. Toyota execs would do well to spend time in America and Europe, and drive the latest Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, and Cadillac products. It's clear they have no idea what is really going on and are incredibly ignorant and shortsighted.

I have a theory that the Century and GR GT may very well fail here and in other global markets. It's almost like there was a specific reason why Toyota created Lexus, and spent 36 years building a luxury brand...

 

[DarkSpace6383]

I will be convinced the GR GT be a competitive road car if I see they benchmark it against the GT2 RS or AMG GT BS. So far they've only benchmarked it against the Turbo S and GT R, which are not very high bars to clear.

As for the Century, it has already flopped both domestically and in China. So I don't think they have any better luck in other markets. The last-gen V12 sedan sold about 100 units/month in Japan. They planned to sell 50 sedans and 30 SUVs per month for this generation, but failed to hit both targets. Meanwhile Mercedes sells over 1000 Maybach branded cars a month globally (most of which in China).

I think they will have to update the sedan and help boost century sales by increasing and elevating it's stature, though it is abundantly clear that something needs to change. The GR GT would be highly competitive, and I think a Lexus version of this should come. The Huracan/R8 were both highly successful they should follow the same concept here. I think they would see the same success. The GR GT is very much a track-car. If they give the Lexus similar styling and power, but make it more of a subdued design and also more daily-able, it could work.