A V8 Lexus LFR May Have Been a Pipedream After All

[ssun30]

The GR GT will definitely be fine. I am unsure about century. It will take a while but I think it could eventually become decent.

I will be convinced the GR GT be a competitive road car if I see they benchmark it against the GT2 RS or AMG GT BS. So far they've only benchmarked it against the Turbo S and GT R, which are not very high bars to clear.

As for the Century, it has already flopped both domestically and in China. So I don't think they have any better luck in other markets. The last-gen V12 sedan sold about 100 units/month in Japan. They planned to sell 50 sedans and 30 SUVs per month for this generation, but failed to hit both targets. Meanwhile Mercedes sells over 1000 Maybach branded cars a month globally (most of which in China).

 

[DarkSpace6383]

That is not true. He has never said anything about platforms being EV priority.

A new 4.0L V8TT will not be smaller than the 2UR-GSE. The Hot-V configuration will use a lot of space on top of the block. Every Hot-V 90-degree engine on the market uses more space than a traditional cold-V NA engine. The GR GT getting a hybrid system has nothing to do with engine bay packaging since the motor will be integrated into the rear transaxle.

I remember reading something about that but I guess I may be wrong. Even still we could see a Lexus version of the GR GT. That wouldnt surprise me.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

They're infinitely more popular because they are also infinitely less expensive and Toyota put actual effort into marketing, maintaining, and updating them. Toyota cut off all funding and support for F in favor of GR and FWD CUVs many years ago.

That is a true statement. Popularity and desirability are two different things. Before you got your F, we used to argue if my F is really worth almost $100K CAD (with the carbon performance package, of course). I honestly believe it is, but I totally respect someone who thinks it was overpriced in 2016 money and that I could have gotten something way better (of course, I could have gotten a used GTR for the price I paid for my F plus all of the mods i put on it).

However, desirability is another thing. From my personal experience, F cars are highly desirable. I have seen many times from glass windows, people circling my car checking it out while it is parked in the parking lot. The bright Orange color does not help. There are many stories over the 8+ years I have owned mine.

Just two weeks ago, I was approaching a traffic stop light with a modded blue RSX Type S stopped. As I am approaching the stop light, I gear down 3 -> 2 and then 2 -> 1 so the engine of course, is going "brap! brap!". As I pulled right next to them, my dark tinted window were all the way up, but rolled down like 1/4 inch so they could not see me, but I could hear exactly what they were saying despite their blaring music in the car. They both were fanboying over my RCF hard. Talking about the big vents, bulges and one comment I heard was "dude, no way that is stock. The exhaust much louder than what these cars come with" etc. So, as the light turns green, we both start rolling. I did a light acceleration burst so that they could hear the exhaust more clearly. They turned left while I kept going.

This is an interesting statistic I found where 51,000 people voted in this poll and more than 50% of them picked the RCF in such a big poll.

 

[ssun30]

Of course RCF is the one to get for free. BAC Mono is expensive but you can't really resell it. That leaves RCF TE as the most valuable for resale.

 

[Falcon]

RC F over the Supra?

 

[DarkSpace6383]

That is a true statement. Popularity and desirability are two different things. Before you got your F, we used to argue if my F is really worth almost $100K CAD (with the carbon performance package, of course). I honestly believe it is, but I totally respect someone who thinks it was overpriced in 2016 money and that I could have gotten something way better (of course, I could have gotten a used GTR for the price I paid for my F plus all of the mods i put on it).

However, desirability is another thing. From my personal experience, F cars are highly desirable. I have seen many times from glass windows, people circling my car checking it out while it is parked in the parking lot. The bright Orange color does not help. There are many stories over the 8+ years I have owned mine.

Just two weeks ago, I was approaching a traffic stop light with a modded blue RSX Type S stopped. As I am approaching the stop light, I gear down 3 -> 2 and then 2 -> 1 so the engine of course, is going "brap! brap!". As I pulled right next to them, my dark tinted window were all the way up, but rolled down like 1/4 inch so they could not see me, but I could hear exactly what they were saying despite their blaring music in the car. They both were fanboying over my RCF hard. Talking about the big vents, bulges and one comment I heard was "dude, no way that is stock. The exhaust much louder than what these cars come with" etc. So, as the light turns green, we both start rolling. I did a light acceleration burst so that they could hear the exhaust more clearly. They turned left while I kept going.

This is an interesting statistic I found where 51,000 people voted in this poll and more than 50% of them picked the RCF in such a big poll.

View attachment 10632

RCF is also just objectively a more expensive car

 

[Gor134]

I will be convinced the GR GT be a competitive road car if I see they benchmark it against the GT2 RS or AMG GT BS. So far they've only benchmarked it against the Turbo S and GT R, which are not very high bars to clear.

Recent spyshots on AutoEvolution showed the GR GT testing against a GTBS at the 'Ring

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Recent spyshots on AutoEvolution showed the GR GT testing against a GTBS at the 'Ring

yeah idt they are stupid...they are def testing against everything
they could do gt3rs aswell

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

Of course RCF is the one to get for free. BAC Mono is expensive but you can't really resell it. That leaves RCF TE as the most valuable for resale.

By that account, E92 M3 GTS would have been picked in the poll where other cars were preferred since E92 M3 GTS is holding its value well, but it was not picked by most in the poll. The comments in the poll clearly give insight into the trends of what people think. It is clear in the eyes of most, RCF is just the more desirable car in the poll. That is just a fact as 51% of the 51,000 agreed with that. Others prefer other cars.

There is no denying, the Supra is the more nimble, agile, 500 lbs lighter and smaller/tossable car than the RCF. At the end of the day, it just comes down to this vs that. RCF following the typical Lexus philosophy of the typical jack of all trade and master of none. Supra being a Z4 co-development, is a much smaller 2 seater.

The summary in comments is just that RCF is the special car. High-revving V8, durability, quality, reliability, practicality of 2 + 2 and visibility (I can relate to it since I put two baby seats in the back) and is the rarest of the all of them.

In this video where a bolt-on RCF vs a downpipe/tune Supra (and a Civic Type R). Most in the comments seem to prefer the RCF (though, Supra overall has far more modding potential than the RCF since RCF is a high strung N/A car), but because of that sound and in my opinion, having 4 seats is a big plus.

 

[LCLFV]

My thoughts are that I once believed like you do, but no longer do. Toyota's strategic management of Lexus over the last 15 years has been a long, slow decline with regard to the types of products you'd like to see and listed out. I'd like to see them too, but Akio decided that Century is the new focus for ultra luxury, and GR is his legacy for fun things, so that leaves Toyota as the mainstream brand and Lexus as Toyota+ to make room for Century and GR.

Lexus has been deprioritized to make room and resources for Century and GR - that is the simple truth.

I have to echo this, but I will be a bit more generous and say that I had full faith in the brand up until 2019. When Lexus came out with that trio of the new ES, LC, LS and promised the LF-1 Limitless concept, I felt like the brand had finally reached something of a "destination" for the brand's revitalized image and identity following the controversial spindle grille. The F brand was still alive, and we were all aware that Lexus was developing a brand new TTV8. What I and nobody could have possibly anticipated was that the following years since would be a complete disaster of mismanagement and cancellations of storied nameplates to the brand left and right (with some outright insane decisions like releasing an AWD ES without the V6) culminating in what we have now where Lexus realizes that the pinnacle of the brand should be a Cybetruck minivan. It took the brand less than a decade to completely undo everything they had worked hard to achieve in the 2010's and for what?

Lexus's cars and its brand to online enthusiasts have now reached the same meme-tier copium as Mazda, where people would rather hype concepts and wishlists than actually acknowledge the cars being produced and on sale. I can't express how much I despise those that are profiting on this desperation and produce predatory fake news hopium drivel to attract clicks and views (not going to list specific names but certain YouTubers and magazines are the main culprits of this).

I have to stress that this is not a "boomer moment" and I'm not pining for 20-year-old LS430's again. Anyone who saw Lexus in 2019 compared to what it is now would have to wonder how they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so easily.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I have to echo this, but I will be a bit more generous and say that I had full faith in the brand up until 2019. When Lexus came out with that trio of the new ES, LC, LS and promised the LF-1 Limitless concept, I felt like the brand had finally reached something of a "destination" for the brand's revitalized image and identity following the controversial spindle grille. The F brand was still alive, and we were all aware that Lexus was developing a brand new TTV8.

Absolutely. The ES/LC/LS all finally had styling that worked well with the spindle grille, the LF-1 was an obviously compelling car that could've done monster volume for the segment, and the neglected performance part of the Lexus equation was going to be resolved by the TTV8.

At that point Akio at least wasn't actively interfering, so I have to wonder what changed. There's definitely a story there, but given Japanese business we probably won't ever hear it.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I have a theory that the Century and GR GT may very well fail here and in other global markets. It's almost like there was a specific reason why Toyota created Lexus, and spent 36 years building a luxury brand...

I think the GR GT might do well since high-performance moonshot cars tend to be more brand resistant, like the Ford GT. Of course, it helps that they had a legendary nameplate there too.

Century I strongly suspect will be DOA.

 

[LCLFV]

Absolutely. The ES/LC/LS all finally had styling that worked well with the spindle grille, the LF-1 was an obviously compelling car that could've done monster volume for the segment, and the neglected performance part of the Lexus equation was going to be resolved by the TTV8.

At that point Akio at least wasn't actively interfering, so I have to wonder what changed. There's definitely a story there, but given Japanese business we probably won't ever hear it.

What's odd is that Akio was the one that originally pushed for the spindle grille and making the brand "less boring" leading up to the aforementioned projects. I don't know if he had a change of heart since, but there is no doubt that there has been a driving force behind TMC that now actively wants to dismantle the Lexus brand. Something like the entire backstory of the 5th gen GS being cancelled and repurposed as the Mirai is so insane to wrap my head around that I can only assume that it's a form of sabotage.

 

[Levi]

I think the GR GT might do well since high-performance moonshot cars tend to be more brand resistant, like the Ford GT. Of course, it helps that they had a legendary nameplate there too.

Century I strongly suspect will be DOA.

NSX 2 was a flop despite all its qualities.

 

[Gor134]

NSX 2 was a flop despite all its qualities.

NSX2 was a flop due to how late it came out while being teased for 5-6 years, and also it's global stage debut was overshadowed by the Ford GT Ian mentioned , which NO ONE had seen coming.

Not to mention it didn't really deliver until it's final model year limited-run Type S trim.

 

[Gecko]

My concern with the GR GT is that Lexus had an impossible time selling 500 custom build LFAs for $375k and Toyota thinks they can do better with a brand nobody has heard of? By all measures, the LFA was a flop when new and some sat in dealer inventory for 2+ years after production ended because Lexus couldn't sell them.

Fast forward 13 years and now the LFA is seen as an automotive masterpiece and they're going for 3x original MSRP in the collector market.

Toyota has decided they will have a different experience with a brand almost nobody has heard of, and with almost no history for road cars? I think Toyot/da has a pipe dream where they can say, "Oh yeah, TRD, F, LFA, RC F GT3, F racing, consider all of that GR now, so here is this GR car we want you to pay $250k for," and I just don't know if cars in that class will sell on Akio's little story. It works for him, I'm not sure the actual buyer market will respond the same way.

If this car had come as the LFR, the follow up to the LFA, there would be actual brand heritage and history to sell and that helps a lot. I think GR GT, sold through Lexus, is going to be confusing for people -- and while GR has had success in several racing programs, I don't think it's going to translate to public purchases for a $250k car nobody has ever heard of but I hope I'm wrong.

I'd love to be incorrect and this isn't me being bothered that the LFR won't exist -- it IS about the fact that Japan's view of brands and buyers is very different from reality outside of their own backyard. In fact, it is the entire reason Toyota created Lexus in the first place but it seems that has been thrown out the window.

 

[Gor134]

My concern with the GR GT is that Lexus had an impossible time selling 500 custom build LFAs for $375k and Toyota thinks they can do better with a brand nobody has heard of? By all measures, the LFA was a flop when new and some sat in dealer inventory for 2+ years after production ended because Lexus couldn't sell them.

There's a few things different now that might help the GR GT be successful.

One being that with how regarded the LFA is now, people won't want to miss out on this supercar, especially it has a lower entry cost around 250k in this highly inflated supercar market. Additionally, lots of new money is buying these supercars these days, Instagram clout definitely sells (look at all the 992 GT3s and McLarens on social media) and being actually tied in with a GT3-derived chassis, I feel like it'll attract some decent attention.

If they can make a bombshell debut with a new 'Ring time along with it that will definitely garner a lot of attention.

 

[Kelvin2020]

My concern with the GR GT is that Lexus had an impossible time selling 500 custom build LFAs for $375k and Toyota thinks they can do better with a brand nobody has heard of? By all measures, the LFA was a flop when new and some sat in dealer inventory for 2+ years after production ended because Lexus couldn't sell them.

Fast forward 13 years and now the LFA is seen as an automotive masterpiece and they're going for 3x original MSRP in the collector market.

Toyota has decided they will have a different experience with a brand almost nobody has heard of, and with almost no history for road cars? I think Toyot/da has a pipe dream where they can say, "Oh yeah, TRD, F, LFA, RC F GT3, F racing, consider all of that GR now, so here is this GR car we want you to pay $250k for," and I just don't know if cars in that class will sell on Akio's little story. It works for him, I'm not sure the actual buyer market will respond the same way.

If this car had come as the LFR, the follow up to the LFA, there would be actual brand heritage and history to sell and that helps a lot. I think GR GT, sold through Lexus, is going to be confusing for people -- and while GR has had success in several racing programs, I don't think it's going to translate to public purchases for a $250k car nobody has ever heard of but I hope I'm wrong.

I'd love to be incorrect and this isn't me being bothered that the LFR won't exist -- it IS about the fact that Japan's view of brands and buyers is very different from reality outside of their own backyard. In fact, it is the entire reason Toyota created Lexus in the first place but it seems that has been thrown out the window.

Exactly, at this price point people don’t just buy performance, they WANT the heritage! they WANT the story!

Honestly, if this car belonged to Lexus, I’d really consider buying it. Having it park next to my LC500 would be amazing. What a shame it isn’t.

 

[Gor134]

they WANT the heritage! they WANT the story!

IMO, the GR Motorsports tie-in is far more representative of the car than LFA as it's heritage.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

IMO, the GR Motorsports tie-in is far more representative of the car than LFA as it's heritage.

True. I think it could be possible that they have both Lexus and Toyota versions of the car. The fact that they renamed the sport battery concept to sport concept for the updated version is saying something.