Lexus Developing Twin-Turbo Hybrid Powertrain?

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
6,805
Reactions
15,213
main reason for why I dont think we will see hybrid twin turbo is the markets that require such vehicle - it would sell only in Europe and nobody would buy it there since we moved to plugins or evs for that market. People simply dont buy large high powered engines like that anymore - for us 350hp hybrid is enough.

Markets that buy high performance engines, such as USA, Arab countries and Russia do not buy hybrids. They want 600hp petrol engine.

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

I would guess the smile comes from him either not understanding them or thinking how funny they are, lol.

Well it seems something is coming for the LS, there wasn't enough time for more engines at launch according to the article. I really hope a V-8 option comes and of course the F V-8 option.

Even the thought of the LS with the current 5.0 V-8 makes me drool. That sound and engine in the LS would be amazing.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
main reason for why I dont think we will see hybrid twin turbo is the markets that require such vehicle - it would sell only in Europe and nobody would buy it there since we moved to plugins or evs for that market. People simply dont buy large high powered engines like that anymore - for us 350hp hybrid is enough.

Markets that buy high performance engines, such as USA, Arab countries and Russia do not buy hybrids. They want 600hp petrol engine.

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

I would guess the smile comes from him either not understanding them or thinking how funny they are, lol.

This. I don't think it's worth bothering making 'another hybrid flagship'. It's something they did ten years ago. The LS+ should have flagship EV (for EU/CN), FCV (for JDM), and V8-F (for USA) models. Having these options will make it an unrivaled halo car, since no competitor can offer all three at once. It will be a show of force.
 

krew

Site Founder
Administrator
Messages
3,686
Reactions
5,670
And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

The more telling quote is from CAR Magazine:

The car’s deputy chief engineer told me there hadn’t been time to hybridise the twin-turbo version of the V6 before this car was launched, but the job was now in hand. More torque lower down would probably solve both the refinement and the engagement issues, and make the LS a much better car.

Truth is, Lexus is spreading out development costs -- the LC was able to launch with the virtual 10-speed hybrid transmission, but had to pair it with a reworked 450h powertrain. The LS launched the TT 3.5L V6. Now Lexus is planning to merge the TTV6 and the hybrid system.

For all the talk about Lexus not having a replacement for the 4.6L V8, I have to think the resulting LS 650h (?!?) would be positioned above the LS 500 -- more horsepower, more torque, quieter, more fuel efficient. It has the potential to be a great fit, maybe even filling the role originally meant for the LS 600h back in the day. Would give Lexus an option between the LS 500 and the much-rumored TT V8 LS F.

Still, I don't see LS 650h hitting a combined 500 hp. Maybe 475, but more likely 450.
 

krew

Site Founder
Administrator
Messages
3,686
Reactions
5,670
This. I don't think it's worth bothering making 'another hybrid flagship'. It's something they did ten years ago. The LS+ should have flagship EV (for EU/CN), FCV (for JDM), and V8-F (for USA) models. Having these options will make it an unrivaled halo car, since no competitor can offer all three at once. It will be a show of force.

Hybrid is still an important technology, and one that Lexus remains committed to. I agree that Lexus needs all of the powertrains you mention, but believe a hybrid LS would fit comfortably underneath all of them.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
Hybrid is still an important technology, and one that Lexus remains committed to. I agree that Lexus needs all of the powertrains you mention, but believe a hybrid LS would fit comfortably underneath all of them.
True. Underneath and not at the top. Will most likely replace the 500 in EU to make a fully-electrified lineup. Could replace the 500h as well if they had a lower-end drivetrain available.
The output level should be less than 450hp since the ICE will be efficiency-optimized like before.
 

krew

Site Founder
Administrator
Messages
3,686
Reactions
5,670
The output level should be less than 450hp since the ICE will be efficiency-optimized like before.

I know you're right, but it would be wonderful if Lexus tuned a hybrid towards performance rather than total efficiency.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,753
Reactions
11,388
What would make the most sense for Lexus in global markets would be a 3.0L N/A, T or TT V6 hybrid, or a mix of those. Being down on displacement, it would take some engineering to get it to the right mix of efficiency and power for heavy cars like LS and LC, but it has much more global appeal for markets that have a displacement tax. This would be the best option to replace the current "500h" powertrain. Right now, "old" GS 450h makes 338hp but "new" LS 500h makes 354hp, so we have a 16 horsepower difference between "500h" and "450h." This is where the lines get gray about displacement, power output and naming. Whatever it's called, this is the smartest route for Lexus in Europe, China and beyond. It would also probably be fine for US consumers as well depending on tuning.

I do still think there is an opportunity to pair the 3.5L TT with a hybrid system, but the idea would likely meet the same fate as the N/A V8 due to displacement taxes. If it happened, I assume the naming goes up to "550h" or "600h" at that point. I think if they can make this theoretical powertrain truly rival the V8s from Mercedes, Audi and BMW (We are talking 0-60 in ~4.5 seconds with very strong, effortless power delivery), then it's a great option to legitimately replace the need for a "mainstream" V8 LS and serves as a tech/hybrid showcase. Even as someone who loves NA engines, loves V8s, loves torque and wants to see a V8 LS... in theory, the 3.5L TT V6 mated to a hybrid powertrain would be a very desirable combination.

3.5L hybrid is just a tough sell on a global scale because displacement puts it in the same tax bracket as larger engines which are much more powerful, and thus, desirable.


I think the other interesting element is the hybrid system for "350h or 400h or 450h" - the core products below flagships. We need to know what that rumored engine is between the 2.5L I4 and 3.5L TT V6 in Toyota's Dynamic Force chart... then the pieces will come together a little better. The rumored 2.5L TT I4 as the base of a hybrid system for vehicles that weigh 4k+lbs would not be a great fit... 2.5L TT is already asking a lot of a 4 cylinder if they punch it up to ~300-340hp, plus hybrid batteries. 3.0L V6 would sit in the same tax bracket, offer better NVH and harshness and also allows for more flexibility in tuning for smoothness, efficiency and power -- not to mention it's a much better engine for SUVs and trucks. This is why I think we will see a new 3.0L turbo V6... the business case is very strong when you look at all of the use cases. Plus, Lexus will need a new 2.0T globally, so that is a given. Is there room for 2.0T I4, 2.5L TT I4, a "core" 3.0L V6 and 3.5L TT V6? I think not.


So, in my assumption, we will see:

200: 2.0L I4 from UX 200: 168hp.
250: 2.5L I4 from Camry: 205hp
250h: 2.0L I4 from UX 250h: 176hp
300h: 2.5L Hybrid from Camry LE: 208hp
"300" or "350": All-new 2.0L turbocharged I4: ~275hp.
"350h" or "400h": All-new 2.0L turbocharged I4 paired to a hybrid system: ~285-300hp
"350" or "400": All-new 3.0L turbocharged V6: ~365hp
"500": All-new 3.5L twin-turbocharged V6: 416hp
"500h": All-new 3.0L turbo V6 paired to a hybrid system: 350-375hp
"550": All new 4.0L turbo V8: 400-425hp (LX, Tundra, Land Cruiser, Sequoia)
"F": All-new twin turbo 4.0L V8: 600-625hp
 
Last edited:

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,517
Reactions
3,442
Hybrid is still an important technology, and one that Lexus remains committed to. I agree that Lexus needs all of the powertrains you mention, but believe a hybrid LS would fit comfortably underneath all of them.

hybrid is certainly here to stay for a long time, in every country that there are no huge EV incentives, EV sales are very small.

As to the 3.5l tt hybrid, they can always do more performance version of it with slightly bigger battery and more tuned software wise for performance. They would be able to do 100hp from electric with still relatively small battery (2kwh?). This would also bring a lot bigger EV power instant push.

But the problem with all above is that:
a. 450h and 500h hybrids sell well only in Europe (and lesser extent Japan) due to the emission laws.
b. main problem in Europe is price - not performance. So they would not sell more in Europe if they had 100hp more - literally nobody cares. People want lower price and better mpg. They are afraid of high powered vehicles, which is why best selling S class is S350d with 286hp.
c. market that wants performance is not Europe - it is USA, and they also prefer to drive V8tt and not hybrids. Current LS/LC sales goals for 500h is 10%! Hybrids that sell well in US are lower priced.
d. US market would not consider 100+ hybrid with worse MPG as better option. It would still not be as sporty as possible (eCVT) and they would complain about mpg being only 20. Halo car would have to be EV or 600+ V8tt.

So instead of doing 650h, Lexus would be much smarter to do EV powertrain for performance vehicles + F models with 600hp+.

I would guess that this is what they want to do - with F models coming first, as well as dedicated EV... and then LS based EV later.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
@Gecko

The biggest worry is that, in the not so distant future we will have an inline-4 hybrid LS, when the 2GR-FKS/FXS go out of production. :(

And eventually we will get inline-3 turbo/hybrid IS/UX/NX/RX or whatever. :scream:

These things will sell in hordes and make bean counters at Aichi extremely happy.

It's time to embrace full electric.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,517
Reactions
3,442
@Gecko

The biggest worry is that, in the not so distant future we will have an inline-4 hybrid LS, when the 2GR-FKS/FXS go out of production. :(

And eventually we will get inline-3 turbo/hybrid IS/UX/NX/RX or whatever. :scream:

These things will sell in hordes and make bean counters at Aichi extremely happy.

It's time to embrace full electric.

Those turbos are not cheap as you know... lets hope they do bring them out, Lexus selling well is good for all of us.

As to the EV, there are only few markets in the world prepared for it... so it is far away.

But looking at their production/investment announcements, TMC will have full EVs in 2020, and mass market too.
 

krew

Site Founder
Administrator
Messages
3,686
Reactions
5,670
b. main problem in Europe is price - not performance. So they would not sell more in Europe if they had 100hp more - literally nobody cares. People want lower price and better mpg. They are afraid of high powered vehicles, which is why best selling S class is S350d with 286hp.

LS 500h isn't all that great in that regard either. That 3.5L V6 hybrid that I liked so much in the LC 500h is just a bad fit for the LS.

Unfortunately, something like this might be the best solution:

The biggest worry is that, in the not so distant future we will have an inline-4 hybrid LS, when the 2GR-FKS/FXS go out of production. :(
 

Ian Schmidt

Moderator
Messages
2,339
Reactions
4,072
An inline-4 series PHEV LS with a big enough battery that it could run as a pure EV for daily driving would be pretty interesting as an intermediate step. You'd have the quickness advantages of the pure EV drivetrain and potentially a range of over 500 miles if you started with the battery at full charge and the gas tank full.
 

krew

Site Founder
Administrator
Messages
3,686
Reactions
5,670
An inline-4 series PHEV LS with a big enough battery that it could run as a pure EV for daily driving would be pretty interesting as an intermediate step. You'd have the quickness advantages of the pure EV drivetrain and potentially a range of over 500 miles if you started with the battery at full charge and the gas tank full.

My friend has a Prius Prime, and is currently running 392 MPG -- driven over 2,000km and still has half a tank.

That's the kind of tech that blows my mind. Even more than pure EV. If Lexus could do something like that with the LS...:neutral:
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
My friend has a Prius Prime, and is currently running 392 MPG -- driven over 2,000km and still has half a tank.

That's the kind of tech that blows my mind. Even more than pure EV. If Lexus could do something like that with the LS...:neutral:

To do that he has to regularly charge from the grid doesn't he? It's not some "blowing your mind" technology. His daily commute needs to be really short to fit into that tiny EV range.

The problem I find with a PHEV luxury car is that, to propel all that weight you need a really big (and heavy) battery, at which point it's actually lighter to go for an all-electric solution. The 740e and S550e are pretty much compliance vehicles with lousy engineering.

Plug-in Hybrid works best at the size/weight class of the Prime, out of that narrow range it becomes really undesirable.
 

Ian Schmidt

Moderator
Messages
2,339
Reactions
4,072
Sure, but a lot of people's commutes *do* fit into even a relatively small EV range. Mine's less than 5 miles and my work has free-for-employees EV charging stations so something like that would work extremely well for me.
 
Messages
53
Reactions
74
I guess if governments continue to tighten emission standards, then the atmospheric engine could phase out altogether for small capacity turbos.
However, increasing emissions standards further again, could phase out all conventional ICE's for hybrids and upwards.
Increasing emissions standards again, could phase out hybrids in favor of plug-in hybrids.
Further increase in emissions standards again would phase out all ICE, hybrids and plug-ins for full blown EV's.

Interesting to note that it may not be that easy to replace the hybrid or small capacity turbo hybrid for plug-in hybrids, especially in sedans.

The first generation hybrids like the 2005-12 GS450h had tiny half sized trunks.
The second generation hybrids like the 2012-19 GS450h has a much more competitively sized trunk, while the current IS300h has its trunk reduced by only 30 L from 480 L to a still very useful 450 L metric. A standard C Class/3 Series has identical 480 L metric trunks. A Camry/GS has a 520 L trunk.
The third generation hybrids now are sandwiching the battery packs between the rear seat base and fuel tank, for zero loss of trunk capacity.

danh-gia-xe-2019-lex-cdd7_wm.jpg


Theoretically, plug-ins have battery packs that are roughly three times larger than hybrids. Hence more electrical energy, and bigger electric motors for much greater portion of power being delivered by EV, as opposed to traditional fossil fuel burning ICE.
Because the plug in's battery pack is roughly three times larger and heavier than the hybrid's battery pack, hence the trunk volume of a BMW 330e falls to just 370 L metric, while the Mercedes C350e with an even bigger battery pack for more linear power - the trunk volume falls to just 330 L metric.
Worse, the C350e now weighs some 100 kg more than an IS300h, such that the extra weight of plug-ins will surely affect handling.
Furthermore, because the plug-in battery pack is often located in the rear overhang, the spare tire compartment is gone, and the vehicle uses run flats.
Thus, plug-ins have their pros and cons.

Because plug-ins have their pros & cons, there is certainly room for a Lexus twin turbo hybrid with a compact battery pack neatly sandwiched between the rear seat base and the fuel tank - esp for a sedan.
With tall wagon SUV's, the location of the big plug-in battery pack becomes much less of an issue.

BMW-330e.3.jpg


Mercedes-Benz_C350_PHEV_Detroit_0005.jpg



Presently, there simply is NO perfect engine format.
Each format has its pros and cons.

1) Atmospheric with poor economy & emissions.
2) Turbo with poor response.

3) Atmospheric hybrids with reduced trunk capacity and extra weight over the rear overhang.
4) Turbo hybrids - ditto above.

5) Atmospheric plug-ins with considerably reduced trunk volume, with considerable weight over the rear overhang, and run flats/tire repair kit eg Prius Prime.
6) Turbo plug-ins with considerably reduced trunk volume, considerably more weight over the rear overhang, and run flats like 330e & C350e.

7) EV with a very very large & heavy battery pack.

Meanwhile, solid state battery EV's are a good 5-10 years away...
 
Last edited:

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,517
Reactions
3,442
@peterharvey i dont think small turbos do better under WLTP anymore - just like they dont do under EPA testing? but some countries might have displacement based taxing, so sometimes they are advantageous.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,753
Reactions
11,388
Any more news in regards to this power unit? Bump.

From what I hear, it will debut on the new Tundra, which has all been pushed back a year to accommodate the new powertrain. So I think we will see possibly late 2020 intro as 2021MY. If not that, early 2021 as 2022MY. Land Cruiser and LX are expected to follow very shortly after, as well as Sequoia. I assume LS would also get it at this time, as that coincides with a 2/3-year refresh.