German Big 3 automakers emissions cheating disaster Master Thread

Och

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However they fine-tune the numbers, I don't think there's much question that today's cars, in general, pollute a lot less today than they did years ago In cities lacking heavy smokestack industries and where vehicles do most of the air-pollution (the D.C. area where I live is an example), there are generally fewer Code-Orange and Code-Red smog days now than there were decades ago, even when there were many fewer vehicles on the road. That the number of vehicles in and around major cities can increase like they have (there are probably two or three times the number of cars in the D.C. area than back when I learned to drive 45 years ago), while at the same time, the average quality of the air has actually improved, to me, is remarkable. It testifies to the effectiveness of emission controls (the VW scandal notwithstanding, of course).

Absolutely, but thats mostly because we no longer have cars without EFI and without catalytic converters. I don't think however there is much real life difference between say 1995 Civic vs 2015 Civic, or any other comparable cars that are equipped with these systems.
 

IS-SV

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Carbon buildup, in many cases (depending on exactly where the buildup is), can be controlled or eliminated by using a good name-brand fuel with a good detergent additive and periodically adding a can of BG-44K. (I myself use either Shell, or, if available, Chevron/Techroline).

A bit offtopic (VW diesel is topic)

How does that keep intake valves and intake clean (probably does not), when DI injects gas straight into cylinder.
 

IS-SV

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I'm looking forward to hearing from our European residents on this VW diesel fiasco, now that many of those countries with big sales numbers are part of this.
 

mmcartalk

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How does that keep intake valves clean (probably does not), when DI injects gas straight into cylinder.

That's where a good detergent package in the fuel comes in. In general, Chevron's Techrolene package is considered the be the best...though Shell's is also up there. BG-44K fuel system cleaner also has a very good reputation of cleaning out everything from the fuel tank to the valves.

A bit offtopic (VW diesel is topic)
Diesels certainly aren't immune from build-up problems, though sometimes of a different nature than gas engines due to the compression-ignition cycles.
 

mmcartalk

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I'm looking forward to hearing from our European residents on this VW diesel fiasco, now that many of those countries with big sales numbers are part of this.

Good suggestion......I am, too, although the emission-standards aren't necessarily the same in Europe as in the U.S., and what works from a cheating standpoint in one country may or may not work elsewhere.
 

IS-SV

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That's where a good detergent package in the fuel comes in. In general, Chevron's Techrolene package is considered the be the best...though Shell's is also up there. BG-44K fuel system cleaner also has a very good reputation of cleaning out everything from the fuel tank to the valves.
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Let me repeat the question:

How does that keep intake valves and intake ports clean, when DI gas engine injects gasoline straight into cylinders? (because despite the old advertising hype, the product put into gas tank doesn't even touch mentioned areas prone to carbon buildup on some DI engines).
 
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Och

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Carbon build up is even worse with diesel engines. My ford would trigger CEL about once a year, requiring EGR system cleaning, and my mechanic used a vacuum cleaner to get some of the nasty gunk from the port where EGR valve goes. It wrecks absolute havok inside the intake manifold and covers intake ports and valves with a thick layer of carbon.

With SCR, why are EGR systems are still necessary, if SCR is so effective in breaking down all the exhaust particles? My bet is that they only remain because they are mandated.
 

Och

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Let me repeat the question:

How does that keep intake valves and intake ports clean, when DI gas engine injects gasoline straight into cylinders?

These additives do absolutely nothing on DI engines.

AFAIK, Toyota is the only one with a workaround that involves having both direct and port injection.
 

IS-SV

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With SCR, why are EGR systems are still necessary, if SCR is so effective in breaking down all the exhaust particles? My bet is that they only remain because they are mandated.

I thought SCR mainly helped in Nox reduction. But I'm certainly the least qualified (or almost) to answer advanced 2015 automotive engineering questions, lol.
 
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IS-SV

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These additives do absolutely nothing on DI engines.

AFAIK, Toyota is the only one with a workaround that involves having both direct and port injection.

Today I think the better automakers use other engine designs/techniques to create slight amount of turbulence in areas prone to build-up. Cheaper than having both port and direct injection too.
 

mmcartalk

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Although it may be a little off-topic and does not get into TDIs in general, here's a good article on the subject of valves, DI, and build-ups:

guide.com/auto-news/2015/01/is-carbon-buildup-a-problem-with-direct-injection-engines-.html
 

mmcartalk

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I thought SCR mainly helped in Nox reduction. But I'm certainly the least qualified (or almost) to answer advanced 2015 automotive engineering questions, lol.

You know more than the vast majority of people in this country about the subject...in fact, that can be said for most of us on this forum.
 

mmcartalk

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Today I think the better automakers use other engine designs/techniques to create slight amount of turbulence in areas prone to build-up. Cheaper than having both port and direct injection too.

The lower combustion-temperatures inside the cylinders (from the air/fuel mixture being sprayed rather then sucked in) also contribute to more deposits with DI by not helping to burn as many of them off.
 

Och

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http://www.benzinsider.com/2015/09/11000-mercedes-benz-sprinter-vans-recalled/

Daimler just announced that it will be recalling some of its Mercedes-Benz Sprinter vans. According to MarketWatch, the move is to allow the company to replace the software of the vehicle that is related to its emissions.
Based from the source, the company sent an estimated 11,000 letters to customers who bought Sprinter models. The document mentioned that the “emissions-relevant control units”of the vans will be getting enhanced software. Further along the letter, it noted that it is “to avoid possible trouble with the authorities and test organizations.”
The parent of the three-pointed star brand cleared out though that the decision had nothing to do with the problem plaguing Volkswagen, which is related to emissions manipulation. The spokesperson of Daimler said the letters were sent to customers way back in June. This is to address the issue wherein some of the units lacked the function to communicate with test devices.
It should be noted that even Mercedes was dragged into the fray when Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) also accused the company of cheating the results of its emission tests, following the scandal that rocked its competitor, Volkswagen, to its core.
In a probe conducted by John German, an automotive engineer, he found out that the parent of Audi has been utilizing advanced devices to suppress the actual emission figures of its vehicles. He discovered the fraud when he compared the actual road test figures of some of its vehicles against the lab test numbers produced by the company.
A few days ago, Daimler categorically denied using similar tactic. The company defended itself by saying that it has been complying religiously to regulations.

And I just bought a brand new Sprinter van a few month ago. There is no way I'm bringing it for any sort of recall until I know for sure how that software works.
 

Och

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In the view of these evens, I've been reading up on how these EPA tests are being performed and it turns out that its a common practice to remove mirrors and door handles, tape over all body gaps, install underbody covers, over inflate tires and so on. So the ratings based on these tests are purely subjective. VW just took it to the next level.

If the governments agencies such as EPA are going to mandate certain compliances, they have to define testing standards a lot more clearly. When these standards are vaguely defined, it basically gives EPA racketeering powers. Theoretically EPA can decide to single out any other manufacturer, accuse them of cheating during testing and impose fines and all other sorts of punishment.

Now, to make things clear, I think what VW did was very wrong. But I also agree with Clarkson that VW should take a tough stance and tell the limp brained farts in the EPA to clearly define standards for test procedures, and also set realistic requirements for emissions and economy. When setting these standards, maybe EPA should also take advice from actual engineers instead of nasally pluck dressed global warming professors. Because if engineers have to design cars that actually keep up with the mandates that these imbeciles dream up during their eco-mental potato trips, these cars will soon end up costing as much as spaceships, and cost about as much to maintain.

While ganging up on VW, its good to keep in mind that some of their TDI models can be had for an amazingly low lease rate, with lower monthly payments than what most people spend on fancy coffee at Starbucks each month.
 

IS-SV

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In the view of these evens, I've been reading up on how these EPA tests are being performed and it turns out that its a common practice to remove mirrors and door handles, tape over all body gaps, install underbody covers, over inflate tires and so on. So the ratings based on these tests are purely subjective. VW just took it to the next level.

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Note: From what I've read those are not common practices for determining EPA fuel mileage estimates.

Those are practices in Europe to use loopholes in EU law for coming up with inflated fuel economy ratings, plus/including removing weight/seats, using low friction oils, tweaking alignment settings, etc.. VW's liability issue is mainly pollution-related, not fuel economy. Although expected "fix" still TBD might (likely) significantly reduce fuel efficiency and performance.
 
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mmcartalk

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Wall Street itself is now jumping on the bandwagon. They just removed VW from the Dow Jones Industrial list for stocks.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-stock-delisted-dow-jones-sustainability-index/

Because of the company's years-long diesel emissions evasions, Volkswagen AGis being removed from the Dow Jones Sustainability Indices effective October 6, according to a joint statement by S&P Dow Jones Indices LLC and RobecoSAM. After looking at reports of the automaker's cheating software, the DJSI has decided that the company shouldn't be part of the index anymore.

According to The Detroit News, the DJSI is meant to track the top 10 percent of companies that are considered leaders environmentally and socially in each industry among the 2,500 largest companies in the S&P Global Broad Market Index. This de-listing means that VW is no longer considered an industry leader by this group for its economic, environmental and social performance.

As of this writing, VW AG's stock price sits at 97.75 euros ($109.14), and the figure has been largely in freefall since the emissions evasions reports first surfaced. It was considered shocking on September 21 when the shares plunged almost 18 percent to end the day at 132.15 euros ($147.57). According to The Detroit News, the automaker has lost about $30.8 billion in value since the EPA put out its notice of violation on September 18.
 
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