Chris Harris Slams Lexus F Performance Brand

[Dreski]

Nice try at an analogy, but with sports there is a clear winner and an obvious loser. How do you determine a clear winner in an automotive comparison? 0-60? Track time? Interior material quality? Cost? Fuel efficiency? It's subjective, and everyone values different things.



Say what you will, but I don't have a loser mentality. I have a challenger mentality. My point was not that Lexus was anything better than second place in that specific comparison, but that the margins between the RC F & M4 are much smaller than Harris or Clarkson will admit.



No way a single car can dominate a segment like Jordan. Not BMW, not Mercedes, not Audi, and not Lexus. Every car has its strengths and compromises.

Straight up -- just because the RC F needs to drop some pounds doesn't mean the entire Lexus F brand is broken. It's simplistic, and doesn't acknowledge how far Lexus performance has come.

Good stuff, fyi... i wasn't talking to you or any particular members.

 

[Dreski]

I've re-read the article he wrote and all the comments posted on here. Been following the back & forth on twitter also.

Its all about the F.

What is the Lexus Performance Brand arm, with direct specificity towards the 'F's' direction is in Europe. How can they lead and succeed over there?

Scott Brownlee, was asked by a twitter use to put into writing what the strategy is. He said "Fair Enough". I'm really interested
in that write-up, anxious to know.

-Dreski

 

[krew]

Good stuff, fyi... i wasn't talking to you or any particular members.

Of course, I know better than to take anything on the Internet too personally. I believe a lot of good can come from exchanges with a little heat to them.

 

[Integress]

This article made me a little saddened to read, but it was certainly no surprise. Lexus (most recently of course the RCF) seems to get bashed in many auto enthusiast groups, and while a lot of it is just the typical internet trolling, some valid points are made as well (just some) just like some valid points have been made in this thread.

I will say that personally, after recently having the opportunity to bring home a few German cars, there is one thing for sure that they all have had, which I really wish Lexus sports models had: more torque. I've had the pleasure of bringing home the C400 4 MATIC (329HP, 354 LB-FT), 435i M-Sport (300HP, 300 LB-FT), A6 w/S Line (333HP, 325 LB-FT), and most very recently, a surprisingly fun VW GTI (220 HP, 258 LB-FT)-- I know that last one isn't a luxury car, but it's still a German car and had a lot of torque, relatively speaking and even though it has much lower HP than the others I've mentioned, that torque combined with the turbo made it a real blast to drive.

Up until recently, I've really only experienced Lexus models (I mean, for more than just a little test drive around the block) and so I never thought anything of the other cars out there. I grew up in a Japanese import only household and never knew what the German cars had to offer, but always heard horror stories about high costs to maintain them (this was a long time ago). But now that I've had the pleasure of driving a few German cars for extended periods of time, I will say that the main component of that experience which really makes a difference to me is that torque-- just the way the cars feel when you accelerate and it just pulls you forward, particularly in the Sport modes.

However, with that said, there are many things that Lexus offers and/or does better than the German competitors-- I find the Lexus interiors are more upscale and luxurious looking/feeling, whereas the BMW and Audi in particular, have much plainer interiors [I'm speaking from personal experience in models that are A6/5 Series level and down; go upwards and you're definitely getting into nicer interiors across the board] and from what I can tell, generally speaking, the Lexus models have more features in them standard-- such as push start/keyless entry or EC Inner mirror w/GDO, whereas the German models I've looked at offer these items as extras.

Regarding the RCF and M4, I had the chance to drive both on the track at the Running of the Bulls event last year and I will say what I think others have already said-- the M4 is a great car to drive, no doubt about it- However, it felt really easy to lose control in it. The RCF felt quick, sporty and confident on the track, and I never once felt that I would lose control, even at high speeds.

I personally won't be taking my car to the track, so for me, the RCF is a fine balance of power, comfort and styling, and at a price point where I get the features I expect in a luxury car without breaking my wallet.

I guess at the end of the day, as a car enthusiast- I can find happiness in driving most sports cars out there, regardless of whether they are Japanese, German, American, Italian, etc. If I had an infinite steady flow of cash, I'd have a whole fleet of all different brands of cars in my garage. For now though, I find the balance I'm looking for in the Lexus models I've had and will continue to own in the future. And I'm used to getting trolled online for it, without taking it too seriously

​

 

[CIF]

@CIF This has nothing to do with trolling, it's a debate, discuss, and in the end come out wiser. If we don't discuss articles like Chris Harris', we learn nothing.

This has a lot to do with trolling, as well as clickbaiting. I really don't want to spend any more time on this discussion than I have to, but I'll explain a few more things.

First off, articles like the one Harris posted I have seen and read dozens of times since the F sub-brand first appeared with the IS F. His article brings up nothing new in terms of the criticism that Lexus and F cars have received over the last several years.
Additionally, Chris Harris is an experienced, and intelligent automotive personality/journalist. He has posted very intelligent articles about the automotive industry in the past. Yet, in this article, Harris comes up with a long write-up criticizing Lexus and the F cars, and at the end of it all, he figuratively throws his hands in the air and says "I don't know" with regards to what the Lexus F brand is. Are we to seriously believe he's suddenly become much less intelligent? Of course not. He posted the article on a site with a very well-known reputation for trolling, personal attacks, and in general very unprofessional and hate-filled conduct. Whether you choose to believe it or accept it is up to you, but the fact of the matter is, looking at all the facts objectively here, Chris Harris posted a clickbait/trollbait article, simple as that. He brought nothing new to the table in terms of objective discussion, that other anti-Lexus and anti-F articles haven't already done so over the last several years, from various publications.

Having said that, the BEST approach to counter this criticism and hate of Lexus is to take away the power of the trolls and clickbaiters. By ignoring them, you take away their power to matter, as well as their power to influence fanboys. Also as I stated already, if Lexus was not a serious and direct threat to the German competition, articles like this simply would not exist. The reason articles like this exist is that the authors of such articles are threatened, or are paid by parties threatened by Lexus, to write and promote such articles.

If you yourself truly believe that there is a worthy discussion here, that articles like this must be discussed, that's fine and up to you. However by doing so you are only further encouraging and helping such articles to continue to be written and published in the future.

Now for anyone that is truly and genuinely unsure of what the Lexus F brand stands for, I can explain it in very simple terms. The Lexus F brand is a unique approach by Lexus to offer high-performance model variants that are easily accessible to the average driver. It is also a young brand that is evolving, so there needs to be a fair measure of patience with respect to the brand. There it is, that's what Lexus F stands for.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

I'm used to getting trolled online for it, without taking it too seriously

Sometimes their license plates say a lot...

 

[Och]

Nobody cares about Audi, they are too small of a player in the US, so they just won't get much attention. Lexus is a big player, up there with BMW and MB, and so obviously it gets more attention.

I think Chris is being too harsh on the whole F performance brand, but there is no denying that the RC-F is far less exciting at launch than IS-F was in 2008. Lexus could have done a lot better, but they didn't, and so a lot of people are disappointed. It probably has to do with the bean counters at Toyota, but if they are going to keep castrating every effort, maybe its better to not even bother than to continue to disappoint.

 

[mikeavelli]

Having more time to think about this, I just want to state again that no one should really snap back at the German brands for the writing done by journalists (something in the past I would get caught up in). Again if they didn't have a AMG/M/RS etc there would be no Lexus F. Chris Harris is still a very reputable source and still a favorite of mine and in essence he is trying to grasp the concept of the Lexus "F" marque which is understandable if one does not keep up with Lexus like we do. Lexus also did add some confusion adding the IS F before the LFA then debuting a RC F 3 years after the LFA. Contrarily the Germans today seem to come out with new high performance versions every year not even including special editions. Could you imagine a Lexus like the new AMG GTS (One of the BEST cars I've driven and its not an overpowering car, Mercedes got the total package right).

I encourage you to read about my AMG experience at the thread below;

https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/threads/my-amg-gt-s-experience.98/

I am a car nut and clearly a Lexus nut and the AMG marque left a super super impression on me after this event. I didn't question AMG or anything they did nor cars like the lifted hatch GLA45. I took them each for what they were aimed at and came away very enthused. I wasn't upset the S63 felt huge compared to the GTS. I didn't bash the GLA45 for being FWD based and tiny compared to the CLS63. They also relay the traditional German way of leveraging heritage and history. It will take the Lexus F marque sometime to do this and it will be even harder with not much going on in racing outside of SuperGT which 99% of the world has no idea about. Hopefully when Lexus gets a full lineup of F cars, they do something like this, to showcase the brand and maybe alter some opinions. We know Lexus events in the past are done very well.

Still in regards to the RC F I agree its not a 0-60 or 0-100 road rocket but I disagree that its as bad as Clarskson and Harris has represented or in some cases misrepresented. I also find it doing a disservice to the RC F to want it to be just like the LFA when the LFA was a 400k car that took 10 years to build and every single thing was bespoke. Having driven the RC F on the road and track I felt it was extremely well done and I didn't walk away disappointed. At the worst I felt yes I would like more power but I didn't think it was some overweight turd as these guys are painting the picture.

Thanks to everyone here that participated and continues to do so. We are a new breed even though Lexus is now 25 years old (young). Let's continue to spread the word of the joys of owning a Lexus. Never would have thought the subdivision that was supposed to speak loudest for Lexus in "F" would maybe need the most help.

Mike

 

[LexusSteve]

Having more time to think about this, I just want to state again that no one should really snap back at the German brands for the writing done by journalists (something in the past I would get caught up in). Again if they didn't have a AMG/M/RS etc there would be no Lexus F. Chris Harris is still a very reputable source and still a favorite of mine and in essence he is trying to grasp the concept of the Lexus "F" marque which is understandable if one does not keep up with Lexus like we do. Lexus also did add some confusion adding the IS F before the LFA then debuting a RC F 3 years after the LFA. Contrarily the Germans today seem to come out with new high performance versions every year not even including special editions. Could you imagine a Lexus like the new AMG GTS (One of the BEST cars I've driven and its not an overpowering car, Mercedes got the total package right).

I encourage you to read about my AMG experience at the thread below;

https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/threads/my-amg-gt-s-experience.98/

I am a car nut and clearly a Lexus nut and the AMG marque left a super super impression on me after this event. I didn't question AMG or anything they did nor cars like the lifted hatch GLA45. I took them each for what they were aimed at and came away very enthused. I wasn't upset the S63 felt huge compared to the GTS. I didn't bash the GLA45 for being FWD based and tiny compared to the CLS63. They also relay the traditional German way of leveraging heritage and history. It will take the Lexus F marque sometime to do this and it will be even harder with not much going on in racing outside of SuperGT which 99% of the world has no idea about. Hopefully when Lexus gets a full lineup of F cars, they do something like this, to showcase the brand and maybe alter some opinions. We know Lexus events in the past are done very well.

Still in regards to the RC F I agree its not a 0-60 or 0-100 road rocket but I disagree that its as bad as Clarskson and Harris has represented or in some cases misrepresented. I also find it doing a disservice to the RC F to want it to be just like the LFA when the LFA was a 400k car that took 10 years to build and every single thing was bespoke. Having driven the RC F on the road and track I felt it was extremely well done and I didn't walk away disappointed. At the worst I felt yes I would like more power but I didn't think it was some overweight turd as these guys are painting the picture.

Thanks to everyone here that participated and continues to do so. We are a new breed even though Lexus is now 25 years old (young). Let's continue to spread the word of the joys of owning a Lexus. Never would have thought the subdivision that was supposed to speak loudest for Lexus in "F" would maybe need the most help.

Mike

I have been busy and arrived to this thread about 3 days late; so I cannot participate in all of the threads fervor. Kudos Mike, wonderful objective approach to educating the viewers of this thread of what the F-Marque is about. And to the poster who said that it's about what happens today and not the past. Well, you're half right. One of the F-marque's main purposes is to expand the Lexus Brand/Lifestyle to ADD NEW customers, not just have pre-existing owners upgrade. It's kind of why they want these higher performance models to be easy (for anyone, not just a racecar driver)/safe/fun to drive, you know? And by the way, F-marque is accomplishing this 'today.' Gee. What a concept.

 

[mikeavelli]

I have been busy and arrived to this thread about 3 days late; so I cannot participate in all of the threads fervor. Kudos Mike, wonderful objective approach to educating the viewers of this thread of what the F-Marque is about. And to the poster who said that it's about what happens today and not the past. Well, you're half right. One of the F-marque's main purposes is to expand the Lexus Brand/Lifestyle to ADD NEW customers, not just have pre-existing owners upgrade. It's kind of why they want these higher performance models to be easy (for anyone, not just a racecar driver)/safe/fun to drive, you know? And by the way, F-marque is accomplishing this 'today.' Gee. What a concept.

Thanks Steve! I hope to finally have my first F when the GS F arrives, I daily drool over the Lexus pictures like the one below Rome wasn't built in a day......

 

[Och]

^^^
That looks seriously freaking awesome!